|
Post by platimus on Dec 22, 2013 10:22:11 GMT -5
Has DCG ever contemplated a detective genre of adventures? Is there any interest in this?
|
|
|
Post by darkscar on Dec 24, 2013 9:31:25 GMT -5
I'm interested in this, but I think it would mean a bit of a paradigm shift for DCG. I don't recall too many detectives having anything more than fistfights with their foes, and then only a couple per novel/short story. The map and counters would be a bit superfluous in a pure detective game. My two bits.
|
|
|
Post by mister frau blucher on Dec 24, 2013 10:03:22 GMT -5
Interesting! We've never done one, and honestly I've never thought about it, assuming we are talking about 20th century earth. But the format of a programmed adventure might lend itself to a detective adventure pretty well. As darkscar said above, shootouts are rarer in the Sam Spade/Mike Hammer genre, so tactical combat would be at a minimum.
That being said, if there is interest we'll explore the possibility!
Thanks, platimus!
|
|
|
Post by platimus on Dec 25, 2013 0:11:45 GMT -5
Yes, I was thinking of 20th century, Sam Spade/Mike Hammer types, not Sherlock Holmes type. Sherlock Holmes time-frame could be interesting also.
I have never read a 'detective story'. The way the genre is portrayed on TV and in the movies, I would have thought there were more gunfights. In any case, I don't see any reason you couldn't throw in a few more. Even if you don't, I wouldn't say the map and counters would be superfluous. No more than they are for current games. They would just get used less often...but with people using their own miniatures, terrain-tiles, virtual-tabletops, etc. would it really be less often?
|
|
|
Post by vladtaltos on Dec 27, 2013 9:41:59 GMT -5
In the few years I’ve played DCGs’ games, a few ideas popped into my head at various times...
The Mystery Trip The Spy Trip The Horror Trip
I think all of those have interesting possibilities.
But back to the topic, I see darkscar’s point. There weren’t many gunfights in detective yarns, even the pulp-noir two-fisted tales had maybe 1-3, and the more mainstream--Christie’s Miss Marple and Hercule Poirot had none that I recall; Conan-Doyle’s Holmes---maybe one or two in all those short stories and novels I read.
If I’m understanding it, the question becomes: Is the consumer justified in asking:
“For only 2-3 combats why include a map and counters for tactical combat? Those items must’ve driven up the price of the game, but for so few combats, I’d rather use nothing at all, or my own miniatures.”
I think that’s a legitimate question.
There’s a good reason there were so few fights...the guilty party is usually the one who the detective winds up fighting or grappling with at the end of the tale, and there is, usually, only one murderer, or one thief, or one criminal, one crime in these stories. To have more fights just to have fights the questions becomes: What’s the motivation for all of these other fights? They would have to have a reason. If they’re not guilty people, then who are they and why do they want to harm or kill the detective?
So yes, I can see the map and counters as being superfluous, but I would encourage something a little different.
Instead of tactical combats, the map could be used to graphically present the scene of a crime.
The man in the blue suit was murdered and fell at hex A. The bloody knife was found at hex B. The butler said he was outside the room, standing in the hallway at the time of the stabbing, at hex C.
Clues could be planted right on the map itself, for the eagle-eyed player to discover... or miss. Actually, all of the illustrations could be on the board itself, replacing counters.
If a new genre of games were opened, I would look into other ways to present info or use components (not that there’s anything wrong with the way things are being done now in the fantasy and sci-fi games. They're working just fine.). These other genres aren’t typically combat heavy. So, why not investigate fresh channels for a new game?
Also, if a detective, or other genre of game came about, I’d really look closely at a true solo game. One detective (one PC). No quartets. These guys are lone operators for the most part. I know Holmes had Watson...somewhat, but it was Holmes winning the day in those stories on his own. And I know Hammer worked solo as well as Spade/Marlowe/The Continental Op/Miss Marple...
Good topic. Great for discussion.
|
|
|
Post by nukesnipe on Dec 27, 2013 16:20:51 GMT -5
Mercenaries, Spies and Private Eyes (MSPE) is a game that has always intrigued me, but had only a couple of solo adventures. Granted, that game system was an adaptation of the Tunnels and Trolls engine, and therefore did not need a map or counters, but wasn't Grail Quest a detective story at it's core?
I would be interested in a detective/treasure hunt setting. If done carefully, the setting could port across "time"; rescuing the damsel is pretty much a timeless story, whether you carry a sword, a Glock, or a laser pistol.
Just my two cents....
|
|
|
Post by platimus on Dec 27, 2013 23:19:17 GMT -5
But back to the topic, I see darkscar’s point. There weren’t many gunfights in detective yarns, even the pulp-noir two-fisted tales had maybe 1-3, and the more mainstream--Christie’s Miss Marple and Hercule Poirot had none that I recall; Conan-Doyle’s Holmes---maybe one or two in all those short stories and novels I read. If I’m understanding it, the question becomes: Is the consumer justified in asking: “For only 2-3 combats why include a map and counters for tactical combat? Those items must’ve driven up the price of the game, but for so few combats, I’d rather use nothing at all, or my own miniatures.” I think that’s a legitimate question. I agree, I think that would be a legitimate question. Another legitimate question might be, 'Why not include more tactical combat to use the included map and counters?' or 'Why not use general purpose maps and counters and make them freely available for download on the web instead?' If the maps and counters are actually used or useful, they aren't superfluous by definition. That's all I was saying. Perhaps they are hired thugs - hired by the guilty party. Perhaps they are old enemies recently released from prison. Perhaps they are just random muggers (bandits). Whatever imaginative force conjures up explanations for fantasy and sci-fi settings can be brought equally to bear in a noir setting. This is interesting because I know you must have some purpose for using the map in this manner. I don't currently see it, so to me, using the map in this manner seems superfluous. I do agree that a new genre should initiate an investigation into new presentation techniques. I was also thinking the detective genre should be one player/one character. However, I'm not against doing a little re-definition of the genre either. Perhaps Mike Spade has a side-kick, young apprentice. Perhaps Mike Spade could spend some dough and hire his own muscle to escort him when he's expecting a fight. At the same time, I'm not against doing a little re-definition of the map either. It could be used as you proposed or it could be shrunk to a 'booklet one-page' size for those few encounters. I'm not against completely dropping the map and counters either.
|
|
|
Post by darkscar on Dec 28, 2013 10:18:51 GMT -5
Instead of tactical combats, the map could be used to graphically present the scene of a crime. The man in the blue suit was murdered and fell at hex A. The bloody knife was found at hex B. The butler said he was outside the room, standing in the hallway at the time of the stabbing, at hex C.
Clues could be planted right on the map itself, for the eagle-eyed player to discover... or miss. Actually, all of the illustrations could be on the board itself, replacing counters. I really like this idea, vlad, and it's really appropriate for a detective game. Most of the clues are discovered through play via the gamebook, but a clue or two is right there, on the illustrated map for the player/sleuth to find or not. It seems like a really cool way to test a player's skills of observation. I like it. Very creative. I also can see the map being designed as a map of the (mythical?) city the crime takes place, with crisscrossing streets, landmarks, etc. The suspect says he was in the park at the time of the crime, and we know he was at Louie's Bar at midnight. Could he have gotten from the park to the bar in the intervening time? Use the map to retrace the path of the suspect's alleged course and find out. ...Again, just another idea thrown out as it enters my head. Take them or leave them as you will. But sure, if there's only 1-3 fights in a detective game, why not think of other ways to use the map, if a map is to be included at all.
|
|
|
Post by mister frau blucher on Dec 28, 2013 12:11:42 GMT -5
This is a great, thoughtful discussion, guys! Lots of great ideas from everyone. The clues-on-the-map has a lot of potential to all adventures, not just the detective genre.
That brings up another issue, though - it would be great if we could include multiple maps, as it gets a little stale fighting on the same one for every combat, and I think this would apply moreso if looking over the same map for clues, though that map would represent multiple (all) locations.
We would like to include more maps, and one of the things I had thought about using Kickstarter for was to include more maps for an adventure as stretch goals. This is because, if we initially sell 30-40 copies of a game without being pre-funded, as the case is now, we have to ration the components (ie map) that go into it. But if we are pre-funded for 100 copies, we can include more goodies like additional maps, and in this particular case, more locations with different clues in them...
OK, partially off-topic - sorry! But this thread has my grey cells tingling....
|
|
|
Post by platimus on Dec 29, 2013 12:05:48 GMT -5
darkscarUsing the map to determine if perp had time to get from A to B sounds cool. @all I still don't understand the clues on the map thing. How are they discovered? (Assuming the map is a crime scene) It sounds cool but I really don't understand how this concept works - for any genre of solo game. Are there some examples from other games/publishers? @mister frau blucher Why not just put the maps (however many) up for download? You could still kickstarter the games. You could still sell pre-printed copies of the maps also - separately from the games - or some combination in between. I think one map is sufficient. Unless some game mechanic/method changes, multiple maps would superfluous.
|
|
|
Post by vladtaltos on Dec 30, 2013 9:42:38 GMT -5
@all I still don't understand the clues on the map thing. How are they discovered? (Assuming the map is a crime scene) It sounds cool but I really don't understand how this concept works - for any genre of solo game. Are there some examples from other games/publishers?
As an example, I’ll add more detail to the scenario of the man in the blue suit who’s been murdered inside his bedroom. The map is an overhead rendering of the crime scene; it shows the victim, the bloody knife, but it also shows the bedroom window has been shattered. Broken glass lies inside the room, and a few muddy footprints have been tracked inside the bedroom near our murder victim. We have six suspects, those who were at the house at the time of the crime---the victim’s wife, the maid, the butler, the gardener, his 19-year-old son and his 18-year-old daughter. Through observing the map we deduce the murderer entered the house by breaking the window, and that, based on the footprints, which are of a man's shoe, the suspect is a male, which immediately eliminates all female suspects---the wife, the daughter, and the maid. Playing through the gamebook, the observant detective now focuses his investigation on the son, the gardener, and the butler, before examining the possibility of the criminal being outside the family. So, the clues on the map are the shattered glass window with its broken shards laying in the bedroom, and the muddy footprints of a man's shoe. The game could actually begin with the words: “Examine the map. This is the crime scene when you walk into the room and begin your investigation.” The scene of the crime wouldn’t even have to be put into words in the booklet.
|
|
|
Post by platimus on Dec 30, 2013 11:57:47 GMT -5
@all I still don't understand the clues on the map thing. How are they discovered? (Assuming the map is a crime scene) It sounds cool but I really don't understand how this concept works - for any genre of solo game. Are there some examples from other games/publishers?
As an example, I’ll add more detail to the scenario of the man in the blue suit who’s been murdered inside his bedroom. The map is an overhead rendering of the crime scene; it shows the victim, the bloody knife, but it also shows the bedroom window has been shattered. Broken glass lies inside the room, and a few muddy footprints have been tracked inside the bedroom near our murder victim. We have six suspects, those who were at the house at the time of the crime---the victim’s wife, the maid, the butler, the gardener, his 19-year-old son and his 18-year-old daughter. Through observing the map we deduce the murderer entered the house by breaking the window, and that, based on the footprints, which are of a man's shoe, the suspect is a male, which immediately eliminates all female suspects---the wife, the daughter, and the maid. Playing through the gamebook, the observant detective now focuses his investigation on the son, the gardener, and the butler, before examining the possibility of the criminal being outside the family. So, the clues on the map are the shattered glass window with its broken shards laying in the bedroom, and the muddy footprints of a man's shoe. The game could actually begin with the words: “Examine the map. This is the crime scene when you walk into the room and begin your investigation.” The scene of the crime wouldn’t even have to be put into words in the booklet. In theory, that sounds wonderful. I'm still wondering if there is an example of this concept actually in use and working by another publisher (other than the boardgame, Clue). In practice, I don't see how you can rely on a picture (map) to convey all of that information accurately, especially the part about determining that the footprints belong to a man. It would be so much easier, more reliable, and in-line with DC Games to present all of that in text like this: The man in the blue suit was found dead in his bedroom on his bed. Muddy footprints lead from the broken window to the body. Next to the body is a bloody knife. The man appears to have been stabbed several times. The victim’s wife, the maid, the butler, the gardener, his 19-year-old son and his 18-year-old daughter were all at home on the night of the murder but never heard anything to arouse their suspicions. If you pass 3/IQ, go to (010). If you pass 4/IQ, go to (015).
010 You notice the muddy footprints are large enough to exclude women as suspects.
015 You notice that the muddy footprints only lead from the window. There are no prints leading back to the window from the body. Looking out the window, you also notice that there are more glass fragments outside than inside.
Perhaps this was just a bad example.
|
|
julie
Full Member
Posts: 171
|
Post by julie on Dec 30, 2013 13:03:28 GMT -5
I'm going to have to remember to check the board everyday. I'm missing all the fun stuff. I love the idea of a detective game, and would love to see DCG put one out. It's fun to see that the talk of a new game has triggered a discussion on new ways to do things. The concept of clues-on-the-map is a great idea, fascinating, why not use it? If not for a new mystery game, then for the existing fantasy/sci-fi games. I'd love to see that, mister frau blucher I think it's pretty simple, actually, telling a man's shoe print from a woman's, even if they both wore boots. I'm sure there are pro artists out there more than equal to such a challenge. Anyway, it was fun catching up on this. I'll make a point to check in everyday.
|
|
|
Post by platimus on Dec 30, 2013 15:18:51 GMT -5
I'm going to have to remember to check the board everyday. I'm missing all the fun stuff. I love the idea of a detective game, and would love to see DCG put one out. It's fun to see that the talk of a new game has triggered a discussion on new ways to do things. The concept of clues-on-the-map is a great idea, fascinating, why not use it? If not for a new mystery game, then for the existing fantasy/sci-fi games. I'd love to see that, mister frau blucher I think it's pretty simple, actually, telling a man's shoe print from a woman's, even if they both wore boots. I'm sure there are pro artists out there more than equal to such a challenge. Anyway, it was fun catching up on this. I'll make a point to check in everyday. Please do, julie. The more the merrier! While I like the idea of having a 'picture' of the crime-scene, I think it would be best to have that picture as a one-page picture in the adventure booklet. I think it would be a mistake to rely solely on that picture for clues without some textual reinforcement, no matter how good the artist. In real life, yes, it would be simple to tell the difference between a woman's or a man's foot-print because of scale. In a game, in a picture, without reinforcing text or another picture that can be used for scale reference, how does one know? I know a picture is worth a thousand words. Yet, most if not all civilizations in existence communicate primarily through written or spoken language. I wonder why that is if a picture is so efficient and reliable?
|
|
|
Post by darkscar on Dec 30, 2013 16:22:24 GMT -5
vlad, you got me interested now, who committed the murder?
|
|