|
|
Post by nukesnipe on May 3, 2014 23:11:57 GMT -5
I agree that the Blessing spell I propose is pretty strong, which is why I have the 5 or less on 3d6 or less requirement tied to it.
Looking back at the die roll probabilities, a 5 or less on 3d6 only happens about 4.6% of the time. If Charlie the Cleric wants to be successful with it with any sort of regularity, he's going to have to pour a bunch of XP into his Blessing skill which will limit his other abilities and attributes. If we go with the Level 0 prerequisites we discussed earlier, assuming he applied one of his starting points to a basic weapon skill and the other two to up his Blessing skill to Level 2, he'd still need a 7 or less on 3d6 to pull off a blessing. That's about a 16% chance of success. And, unsuccessful blessings cost him a fatigue points. He'd have to dump another 30 XP into his Blessing skill just to get a 50-50 chance of a successful supplication, all the while burning fatigue with every success or attempt.
Clerics are going to have to know some sort of combat spell or weapons skill because they'll probably be slinging spells or swinging a weapon more than they are supplicating for a blessing.
Of course, how does one handle blessings outside of combat? I suspect like spells, but I haven't really thought about it.
|
|
|
|
Post by nukesnipe on May 3, 2014 23:15:18 GMT -5
Jlv, I don't have any old TFT material that references a BLESS spell, or I'm having trouble finding it. What would the BLESS spell do? Without knowing that, it seems like a Cleric could 'bless' other characters by casting many of the current spells on them. Cleric says, 'Bless you, my child.' and casts one of the following on you: Blur, Assist, Speed, Stone Flesh, Heal Wounds, etc. etc. Platimus, I'll need to dig up my Interplay magazines to find that answer for you. Interplay was a bi-monthly house organ for Metagaming that lasted for 8 issues before Metagaming tanked. They were loaded with variants, new spells mostly, but some character types and adaptations. One issue had a lengthy article on Priests and improved "spells" for them. I can't remember the details right now. |
|
|
|
Post by platimus on May 3, 2014 23:30:55 GMT -5
I agree that the Blessing spell I propose is pretty strong, which is why I have the 5 or less on 3d6 or less requirement tied to it. Looking back at the die roll probabilities, a 5 or less on 3d6 only happens about 4.6% of the time. If Charlie the Cleric wants to be successful with it with any sort of regularity, he's going to have to pour a bunch of XP into his Blessing skill which will limit his other abilities and attributes. If we go with the Level 0 prerequisites we discussed earlier, assuming he applied one of his starting points to a basic weapon skill and the other two to up his Blessing skill to Level 2, he'd still need a 7 or less on 3d6 to pull off a blessing. That's about a 16% chance of success. And, unsuccessful blessings cost him a fatigue points. He'd have to dump another 30 XP into his Blessing skill just to get a 50-50 chance of a successful supplication, all the while burning fatigue with every success or attempt. Clerics are going to have to know some sort of combat spell or weapons skill because they'll probably be slinging spells or swinging a weapon more than they are supplicating for a blessing. Of course, how does one handle blessings outside of combat? I suspect like spells, but I haven't really thought about it. I think the point that Jlv was trying to make and one of the points I was trying make, is that the Blessing skill you proposed was actually sort of weak. The chance of success, as you pointed out, is very low unless lots of XP is dumped into the skill. In your example, cleric started with Blessing+2 and dumped another 30XP into it just to get a 50/50 chance of success to use it. If said cleric uses those 2 initial points to purchase 2 spells, then uses the 30XP to purchase 2 more spells, he fares much better. If I were creating a cleric, that's what I'd do. |
|
|
|
Post by platimus on May 3, 2014 23:34:05 GMT -5
Jlv, I don't have any old TFT material that references a BLESS spell, or I'm having trouble finding it. What would the BLESS spell do? Without knowing that, it seems like a Cleric could 'bless' other characters by casting many of the current spells on them. Cleric says, 'Bless you, my child.' and casts one of the following on you: Blur, Assist, Speed, Stone Flesh, Heal Wounds, etc. etc. Platimus, I'll need to dig up my Interplay magazines to find that answer for you. Interplay was a bi-monthly house organ for Metagaming that lasted for 8 issues before Metagaming tanked. They were loaded with variants, new spells mostly, but some character types and adaptations. One issue had a lengthy article on Priests and improved "spells" for them. I can't remember the details right now. If either of you could post that, I'd love to see it. Thanks in advance? |
|
|
|
Post by platimus on May 3, 2014 23:46:46 GMT -5
I've really enjoyed the brainstorming on this and I may continue to brainstorm on this with you guys - but my original thoughts before we started the brainstorming still seem best to me.
If you want a 'holy warrior' just create a warrior (10XP skills / 20XP spells). If you want a 'priestly' or 'theologian' type, just create a wizard (20XP skills / 10XP spells). The karma/wish rules are already there. Except for the stuff I made up about 2 karmas = 1 Curse and 3 karmas = 1 Wish. It's up to the campaign and the GM to provide role-playing opportunities to earn karma and wishes. The character's cult gives him quests or rituals to perform that are rewarded with karma or wishes. You get Cursed if you violate the creedo of your cult. This is what I meant when I said I liked the hands-off approach that TFT and LAW took with religion/clerics/etc.
In basic D&D, you have a cleric class. In game, your character can call himself whatever he wishes (priest, theologian, paladin, holy warrior, knight, shaman, etc.). No different here. A mage can call himself a sorcerer, magician, mage, wizard, warlock, conjurer, priest, shaman, etc. A warrior can call himself a cleric, knight, paladin, etc. We've talked a lot about thieves and rangers but those classes don't exist either. They're warriors with a particular set of skills. The building blocks are there for players and campaign creators to use.
Another thought: Cults and Guilds are pretty much the same thing. Clubs with special rules, dues, and perks for their members.
|
|
|
|
Post by platimus on May 4, 2014 1:29:18 GMT -5
Tying it all together...
Cults and Guilds
Joining a cult or guild costs 10XP. An adventure or campaign may alter these costs or forgo the costs altogether by having the character perform a specific task. For example, a thieves guild might require the prospective members to pull off a heist of some sort. A snake-worshiping cult might require killing a great eagle, offering a human sacrifice, or destruction of another cult's place of worship. Additionally, cults may reward the completion of certain tasks with karma points or wishes. Of course, these are just suggestions. A GM may grant starting characters membership in one cult or guild.
Membership in a Guild grants Advantage when using the skills associated with the Guild. Membership in any Cult allows the member to use one karma point to Bless one character, two karma points to Curse one character, and three karma points to make a Wish. Blessing a character gives that character one karma point. Membership has its dues, however. Guild and Cult members must give 1% of their treasure earnings to each Cult or Guild to which they belong. It is not recommended to allow characters to be members of more than one Cult or Guild. Severing ties with a Cult or Guild should not be easy. GMs are encouraged to take advantage of the role-playing opportunities when a character wants to leave a Cult or Guild. However, a GM-less way to handle these situations would be to impose a Curse on the character.
(updated 11:53 PM 5/4/2014 - I rewrote this to be more useful to solitaire or GM-less players, allowing players to make up their own Guilds and Cults when none are provided in adventure or campaign settings. This is still useful to GMs wishing to design Cults or Guilds for their own settings.)
Some very rough examples...
Thieves Guild
Benefit: Members gain Advantage when using all Thief skills or performing searches.
(We can squabble about mechanics of Advantage/Disadvantage later. I'm just getting the concept out for now)
Rangers Guild
Benefit: Members gain Advantage when using Survival, Tracker, Animal Handler, or Herbalist skill.
Fire Magic Guild
Benefit: Members gain Advantage when casting fire spells.
Fire-god Cult
Benefit: Members gain Advantage when casting fire spells. A member that successfully casts a fire spell with a roll of 6 or less gains a karma point. Members have Disadvantage when casting cold or water spells.
Nature-god Cult
Benefit: Members gain Advantage when using Survival, Tracker, Animal Handler, or Herbalist skill. A member that successfully uses one of these skills with a roll of 6 or less gains a karma point. Members have Disadvantage on Social and Thief skills.
Healers Guild
Benefit: Members gain Advantage when casting Healing spells and when using the Medic and Herbalist skills.
See where this is going? Using cults and guilds to address most of the topics we've discussed (talents, priestly classes, and thieves/rangers with wounded pride). What do you think? Too expensive? Too powerful?
|
|
|
|
Post by jlv61560 on May 4, 2014 12:41:44 GMT -5
Jlv, I don't have any old TFT material that references a BLESS spell, or I'm having trouble finding it. What would the BLESS spell do? Without knowing that, it seems like a Cleric could 'bless' other characters by casting many of the current spells on them. Cleric says, 'Bless you, my child.' and casts one of the following on you: Blur, Assist, Speed, Stone Flesh, Heal Wounds, etc. etc. The Bless spell I was referring to was nukesnipe's proposal. The only other version of a Bless spell I've ever seen proposed elsewhere is in the Etan campaign, by Erol K. Bayburt and which is posted on (and available for download from) the Yahoo Groups page for The Fantasy Trip. I actually prefer the Karma point system for a proposed Bless spell that you originally suggested -- it makes more sense, and sort of tracks with the existent Curse spell in TFT in terms of effect without being enormously overpowered, though using the Karma point might need to be restricted by a time limit or something for play balance (obviously some serious playtesting would be required to determine that). Per your later request: BLESS (S): Multipurpose spell used to protect against ill fortune and evil magic. A. Bless Dwelling: A Blessed dwelling has the following properties: 1. Images, illusions, summoned beings, figures traveling by means of magic, and inherently magical “enchanted creatures” cannot enter a Blessed dwelling without an invitation from someone who is already inside. Casting a summoning spell counts as an invitation to whatever is being summoned. 2. Magic cannot damage or pass through the substance of a Blessed dwelling. However, spells can be cast through open windows or doorways. 3. Characters who live in an unblessed dwelling suffer a one-point curse on all their die rolls. This does not apply to characters who do not live in a proper dwelling at all – e.g. adventurers in the wilderness. Cost to Bless a dwelling is 1 St per hearth in the dwelling. Lasts 1 week, but does not take effect for 24 hours after casting. A wizard can also remove a Blessing from a dwelling for the same cost as was required to put it on. B. Bless Outer Wall: Puts a Blessing on a wall, fence, or hedge surrounding a dwelling or group of dwellings. Effects are similar to those of Bless Dwelling, but less powerful: “Enchanted creatures” must roll 3 dice against IQ in order to enter without invitation, spells cast through the structure of the wall are at -6 Dx, and any magic damaging the wall has half its normal effect. Cost to Bless a wall is 5 St. Lasts 1 week, with a 24 hour delay before the Blessing takes effect. Wizards may also remove a Blessing on a wall at a cost of 5 St. C. Bless Community: Puts a Blessing on a whole village, neighborhood, fishing fleet, etc. Members of an unblessed community have a one-point curse on all their die rolls. This does not apply to characters who do not belong to any community at all – e.g. homeless, rootless adventurers. Cost: 5 St. Lasts one year. D. Bless Passage Ceremony: Puts a Blessing on a passage ceremony – naming, coming-of- age, wedding, funeral, etc. An unblessed passage ceremony gives a one-point curse on all die rolls to the principle character in the ceremony. (In the case of a funeral, the curse applies to the heirs.) Cost: 2 St per principle character involved. Lasts forever. I'm not sure what the author was attempting to accomplish here since it seems to combine some aspects of curse with bless, and at the same time doesn't require a "cleric" per se to cast it. In fact, it almost seems more designed to provide a steady source of income stream to the mage characters -- especially since he awards this particular spell to ALL Wizards at NO IQ cost (or in our case, at no XP cost were we to attempt to translate this across to LAW as written). I have to say that I don't like this particular version of Bless, considering it to be strange, overly complex, and somewhat inexact in its effects. I actually prefer something a lot simpler, (e.g., the Karma point idea), more defined in it's effects, and without a lot of ramifications to keep track of. On the other hand, it seems like the author of the spell was groping towards some sort of magical "offset" to magical attacks on, say, castles -- which as you know can be a real problem in a magical world, since castles as designed in our own history were brilliantly designed to make it very hard to attack, but in a magical world would be appallingly easy to overcome by "cheating" magically.... |
|
|
|
Post by platimus on May 4, 2014 14:13:35 GMT -5
Thanks for posting that. I have to say I completely agree with your analysis of the Bless spell. I think A, B, and C are good ways of explaining how safe-havens can exist in a world full of magics and dark forces. I think they should be separate spells, if they exist at all, but tied together like Fireball-I, II, III, etc with IQ requirements. Definitely shouldn't be free either.
I prefer the existing LAW system too with that little addition of 2 karmas = 1 Curse and 3 karmas = 1 Wish. What do you think about the Cult/Guild ideas? That 2 karma = Curse and 3 karma = Wish stuff could be specified within the perks of each individual Cult.
|
|
|
|
Post by nukesnipe on May 4, 2014 19:42:27 GMT -5
Bret, Not sure if I'm allowed to do this. Feel free to delete this post if I've violated some rule. Platimus, Here is the Interplay #4 Priest Article I was talking about. It actually identifies 5 religions and provides some specialization for them. I apologize for the clumsy pdf, but I'm working with the tools I have. |
|
|
|
Post by platimus on May 4, 2014 20:11:40 GMT -5
Thanks, I really appreciate that! PDFs look fine to me! I have to say that any of the stuff that we've imagined up in this thread is more impressive than what's in the those pdfs. If we could just go back in time...we'd be famous and rich! right?  Bret, I hope your eyes heal fast. When they're ready, can you provide a list and very brief description of the most noteworthy cults/religions in Tyrin? Nothing detailed unless you desire. Something like... Cult of Set They worship the snake-god Set. That's it - unless you feel inclined to dole out more info. Thanks to all! |
|
|
|
Post by platimus on May 4, 2014 23:10:48 GMT -5
I added a 'Bless' to my Cults and Guilds post above (and made some other modifications). Bless simply allows a cult member to transfer his karma to another character.
|
|
|
|
Post by platimus on May 5, 2014 0:46:17 GMT -5
Strolling back to something more generalized and useful with or without a GM and trying to remain campaign neutral...
Cults and Guilds
Joining a Cult or Guild costs 10XP. An adventure or campaign may alter these costs or forgo the costs altogether by having the character perform a specific task. For example, a thieves guild might require the prospective members to pull off a heist of some sort. A snake-worshiping cult might require killing a great eagle, offering a human sacrifice, or destruction of another cult's place of worship. Additionally, cults may reward the completion of certain tasks with karma points or wishes. Of course, these are just suggestions. A GM may grant starting characters membership in one cult or guild.
Membership in a Guild grants Advantage when using the skills and/or spells associated with the Guild. (The mechanic of Advantage is open for discussion like everything else. My preference is the 'roll twice, take the best result' method but I'm open to reasonable dice-roll modifiers also.)
Membership in any Cult allows the member to use one karma point to Bless one character, two karma points to Curse one character, and three karma points to make a Wish. Blessing a character gives that character one karma point. Joining a Cult confers the Prayer skill (level 1 or +1) upon the character. This skill is Cult specific and lost when ties with the Cult are severed. The Prayer skill may be used once per day. On passing 3/IQ (+Prayer), the character gains one karma point. If the Prayer check fails, the character loses one karma point. A Cult member spends 10XP to improve his Prayer skill by one level or point.
Membership has its dues, however. Guild and Cult members must give 10% of their treasure earnings to each Cult or Guild to which they belong. It is not recommended to allow characters to be members of more than one Cult or Guild. Severing ties with a Cult or Guild should not be easy. GMs are encouraged to take advantage of the role-playing opportunities when a character wants to leave a Cult or Guild. However, a GM-less way to handle these situations would be to impose a Curse on the character.
|
|
|
|
Post by ednote on May 5, 2014 19:18:42 GMT -5
I think that joining a guild/cult should not automatically grant skills. Access to learning skills, spells, etc... would be more in line with what the benefits would be. You would also acquire the friends and enemies of the organization joined. There could be other advantages, as well. Members might have access to safe places to rest temporarily an on short notice. They would have access to the knowledge and lore of their organization, although probably not all at once. This would go along with organization garb, badges, insignia, etc... Passersby would hear things on the street. "Don't cross him. He's a seventh-degree member of the Fellowship of Incineratory Rites and Evocations." Some organizations would have reputations for being friendly and outgoing others for letting no insult go unanswered. The former would be conducive to making friendly acquaintances, perhaps at the cost of being viewed as saps and easy marks by muggers while the latter would be less exposed to a casual mugging but more likely to be required to appear for an evening of turf wars and gang rumbles.
There is also the whole spectrum of the survivors, artifacts, and ruins of broken groups. "Nobody goes to the Old Tower just outside town, it's said haunted by the ghosts of the Bardonian Sages, attacked and destroyed but orcs of the Six-finger clan one stormy night, long ago. Or, "That wandering old man is all that is left of the wizards of the House of Windley. He was away on an errand when their home was destroyed. Nobody knows if it was a potent spell gone wrong or an attack by unknown forces. He isn't telling, poor old guy."
I think most PC's would wish to be free of the entanglements of joining too much, if they wish to remain footloose and fancy free, if not exactly carefree.
Regards,
Ed
|
|
|
|
Post by platimus on May 5, 2014 19:52:49 GMT -5
Hey Ed. I agree with all of that from your perspective - the perspective of someone designing campaigns and adventures. From a story-telling perspective. I'm more focused on Cults here. I'm using the term very loosely to encompass organized religions. Cults were a way of creating clerics or priest type characters. It seems the most appropriate. Because Cults and Guilds are both clubs with special perks, rules, dues, entanglements, etc. I thought I'd write some stuff about Guilds too - to address a desire for 'Talents' and to address the perceived handicap that thief and ranger types suffer on IQ skills and searches when competing with a high IQ wizard. Guilds seemed like a good way to incorporate a form of ITL-esque Talents. I've written these things with a mind for GM-less play though. By no means am I telling a GM how to do his thing. I guess I was looking for input on the mechanical aspects of what I've written. Is it too powerful? Is it too expensive? Are there alternative ways of creating the same effects (without Guilds). You provided some very good input on how to run adventures or campaigns. Again, thanks for your input - and I do agree with your concepts of Guilds and Cults. By all means, a GM should use the Guild and Cult memberships of characters as adventure hooks whenever he likes. You raised a good question. Why does being a member of a Guild make a character better with the skills of the Guild? Because he is automatically subscribed to the Guilds monthly newsletter discussing the latest tips, tricks, and trends of the field! Seriously though, characters can learn skills from any NPC with a greater skill level. However, as a member of a Guild, a character has access to better instruction. That's my rationale for Guilds that provide Advantage with certain skills. There are definitely other ways to reflect this mechanically, but the only other ways I can think of are too weak or too powerful. Another good point you raised: Joining a Guild or Cult should not automatically grant access to skills or spells. I agree with this. The only skill that is automatically granted is the Prayer skill when you join a Cult. The point of the Prayer skill is to allow characters to take on the vestiges of a Cleric or Priest. A Cleric or Priest without a religion would be sort of silly, wouldn't it? Joining a Guild endows Advantage with a skill, not the skill itself. I'm glad you brought this up because it reinforces my preference to handle Advantage with the 'roll twice, take the best result' mechanic. If Advantage simply gave a +1 or +2 to a skill, that would be the same thing as granting the skill. No spells are granted in Guilds or Cults unless the GM wants to design the Guild or Cult that way. I wouldn't recommend it though. |
|
|
|
Post by ednote on May 5, 2014 23:08:36 GMT -5
Another way to implement Advantage would to give Karma points applicable only to the skills/spells related to the Cult/Guild. If Enrico Flambé casts a 3-point fireball and rolls a total of 5 points of damage, he could spend a Karma point to re-roll his attack, although if he manages to roll 4 points of damage on the next roll he might consider doing some form of penance or at least finding out what he did to offend the Power(s)-That-Be. If he ended up in combat and swung his short sword and rolled snake-eyes, his F.I.R.E. (Fellowship of Incineratory Rites and Evocations) Karma points cannot help him, but normally accrued Karma points could. Welcome to an extra step of book-keeping for Guild/Cult members.  BTW, I had forgotten all about the monthly Guild newsletter. (I like that idea.) I hope it has a Sudoku puzzle.  But one would probably have to read several issues (i.e. expend XP) to actually get much improvement. Warm regards, Ed |
|
