Illusions and Disbelief

[Deleted]

here lies a discussion of Illusions and Disbelief:

Illusions generally have lower IQ requirements and Fatigue costs (Illusion-1, IQ11, 2F) but can be nearly as powerful as higher level spells. For instance, Illusion-1 can be used to create an illusion that mimics Summon Gargoyle (IQ13, 5F). One idea I've had to 'bring balance to the force' follows:

Disbelief can be performed as a Reaction. The first time an illusion successfully hits a NPC, the NPC automatically performs Disbelief as a Reaction.

Another thought that keeps the power of Illusion-1 in check is that Illusion-1 can only create an illusion that occupies 1 space. Therefore, Illusion-1 should not be able to mimic Summon Giant, Small Dragon, or Dragon.

I'm don't know if Giants and Small Dragons are described anywhere in terms of how many spaces they occupy. I will assume that they occupy 4 spaces. This enables Illusion-4 to mimic Summon Giant or Small Dragon. The IQ requirement and Fatigue cost of Illusion-4 (IQ14, 3F) are roughly similar to Summon Giant (IQ14, 5F) and Summon Small Dragon (IQ15, 6F). Given the similarities of requirements and cost, I think the power of Illusion-4 is well balanced by the previous suggestions regarding Disbelief as a Reaction. Comparing Illusion-7 and Summon Dragon would follow similar lines of reasoning.

Another topic that has been discussed is how Illusions can mimic normal missiles (arrows, javelins, spears, etc.) and magical missiles (fist, fireball, and lightning). I believe there was a precedent in TFT that allowed Illusions to mimic normal missiles. I don't believe there was a precedent for Illusions mimicking magical missiles. I am inclined to think that Illusions should be allowed to mimic Fist, Fireball, and Lightning as long as the rules concerning spaces are followed (Illusion-1 -> Magic Fist-1, Fireball-1, Lightning-1; Illusion-4 -> Magic Fist-3, Fireball-3, Lightning-3; Illusion-7 -> Magic Fist-7, Fireball-7, Lightning-7) and as long as the previously suggested rule concerning Disbelief, Reaction, and NPC automatic reaction is in play.

I had a desire to post this because it ties together related ideas and discussions from at least 2 different threads into one thread.

Let the comments, discussions, and games begin!

[Deleted]

i have continued thinking about this. in many situations, forcing the NPC to make a Disbelief Reaction and, thereby, loose a turn could actually increase the power of Illusions. Maybe a better way to balance and balance as desired would be to give certain creatures/races an immunity to Images and Illusions. I'm thinking creatures that do not have or rely on ordinary senses or perceptions of the physical world or that lack the physiology needed for such perceptions. Examples that i have in mind are: Ghosts, Wraiths, spirits in general and non-corporeal beings, (non-flesh) golems, skeletons (i think of skeletons as being all bones, sort of bone-golems)...

[mister frau blucher]

This is a great point, ewookie. In many of our adventures, the undead are immune to images and illusions. It is not in the Core rules, but usually noted in the adventure rules or the encounter rules themselves.

Hopefully, this is a case of great minds thinking alike...

[Deleted]

ah, cool. glad i could reinvent the wheel! LOL

[klingor]

I play it like this.
The first time a character sees an illusion, I run a contested IQ check between the spell caster and the character. If the character wins, he sees through the illusion and, for him, it has no more reality than a hologram (aka Image) - he still sees it but he knows it isn't real. This happens at a subconscious level so requires no action on the part of the character. From that time forward he will regard it as an image (if he won) or a summoned creature (if he lost) and it will affect him accordingly. He can, however, make a conscious effort to disbelieve it later (but this counts as an action) and recontest the IQ check. A successful Disbelief by one character has no effect on the illusion itself - it will still affect other characters as it did before.
The first (subconscious) check is made by the GM without telling the party that it is being made, as this would tip them off that something isn't quite kosher, so unless I'm told otherwise by the players, all characters will being rolling on 3d6 vs IQ.
The intended effects of this are to (1) make the power of illusions reflect the IQ of the caster - the smarter the mage, the more like a summoned/real being it will seem and (2) make smarter characters more likely to see through illusions in the first place.
Cheers
Colin

[Deleted]

i like that initial caster IQ vs. target's IQs check. it makes it like a direct spell but it's directed at everyone in the room. i was and still am thinking of this in the GM-less context because when there's a GM, 'everything is negotiable'. however, i am curious...i don't understand this sentence:

The first (subconscious) check is made by the GM without telling the party that it is being made, as this would tip them off that something isn't quite kosher, so unless I'm told otherwise by the players, all characters will being rolling on 3d6 vs IQ.

particularly the last part beginning with the last 'so'. why are all the characters rolling 3d6 vs IQ?

atm, if i use an illusion in a GM-less, solo adventure, i think i will roll once for the caster's IQ and then let each enemy roll against that. <- that is for the initial, 'free' disbelief check.

[chico]

Hey All,

Great thread. This was just what I was searching for as our group started a TFT/LAW game recently.

My thought on the matter (before reading this thread) was to have a “passive IQ” check that automatically occurs whenever an illusion is cast. This check would be done on 4 dice vs IQ to determine if the illusion is believed. After that initial check, play as normal. With that said, after reading this thread I really like klingors method as it is in the same kind of mindset I had in regard to this spell.

My alternate thought to an illusion is that it would gain the same movement as the creature it mimics but the stats would be the same for any illusion (i.e. ST 10 DX 10 Damage: 1d6). This could give clues to players attacked by the ferocious bear, or large gargoyle that something is amiss as the damage output is kind of small and may lead the players to attempt to disbelieve, or clue them in to the wolf who is usually very agile (DX 13) tends to miss a fair amount of attacks.

My rationale for alternate thought is that since this is a poor man’s spell in terms of point cost to mimic the real thing, it wouldn’t be as effective as summoning a real creature.

[mister frau blucher]

Hey, Chico,

Welcome to the boards!

An intersting thought - I would be curious as to how the reduced effectiveness of the illusion plays out. I think that the ability to banish the illusion with a single successful IQ check balances its low cost, but stll, this is an interesting idea.

I'll be looking for some info on your campaign!

Bret

[chico]

Bret,

Thank you. You are correct. All of what I proposed is currently in theory and will have to be tested out in the campaign. I'll look at updating with the good, the bad and the ugly after play. The hardest part about illusions for me is when a GM can fairly determine that the foes would realistically disbelieve, which I'm grappling with. It does make for good discussion.

[mister frau blucher]

Chico,

Absolutely right, it does make for interesting discussion. And it is difficult to decide if a foe would disbelieve or not - would the foe have any reason to think he might be facing an illusion over a "real" summoned creature? It is also, conversely, difficult to have an enemy wizard in a programmed adventure get away with casting illusions, if it is being played solitaire - it is right there in the text! In Raid on Cygnosa and Fire in the Streets we handled these situations differently, but still imperfectly.

Honestly, I don't think there is a perfect, flawless way to determine if an opponent would disbelieve. Maybe, if a foe sees a character wizard summon/create illusion, roll a d6, and he tries to disbelieve on a 1-3? Just a quick thought for a playable method.

Bret

[nukesnipe]

Dec 5, 2014 14:23:47 GMT -5 mister frau blucher said:

Maybe, if a foe sees a character wizard summon/create illusion, roll a d6, and he tries to disbelieve on a 1-3? Just a quick thought for a playable method.

Bret

Whenever an opponent summons something or casts an illusion or image I have the highest IQ character in the party roll 3d6 on IQ. If they pass the roll, I figure they correctly identified the nature of the spell and acts accordingly. If they correctly identify the illusion/image for what it is, I usually have them make one attempt to disbelieve it as it's usually not right in their face beating on them when it is created.

Meanwhile, my archer(s) try to turn the caster into a pin cushion....

I do this for both sides to keep things as balanced as possible.

[platimus]

Dec 8, 2014 8:10:19 GMT -5 nukesnipe said:

Dec 5, 2014 14:23:47 GMT -5 mister frau blucher said:

Maybe, if a foe sees a character wizard summon/create illusion, roll a d6, and he tries to disbelieve on a 1-3? Just a quick thought for a playable method.

Bret

Whenever an opponent summons something or casts an illusion or image I have the highest IQ character in the party roll 3d6 on IQ. If they pass the roll, I figure they correctly identified the nature of the spell and acts accordingly. If they correctly identify the illusion/image for what it is, I usually have them make one attempt to disbelieve it as it's usually not right in their face beating on them when it is created.

Meanwhile, my archer(s) try to turn the caster into a pin cushion....

I do this for both sides to keep things as balanced as possible.

Both are good methods. I've turned Disbelief and Resist into free reactions - no loss of turn. If there is an Image, Illusion, Sleep, or Mind Control spell in effect, those effected make a free 4/IQ check at the end of their turn. I know it takes the wind out of those illusory sails but I like it given that illusions can masquerade as so many other spells - which seems too powerful.

[bluelens]

Illusions and missile spells are the highest damage spells in law. We always have characters role a d6 whenever something g is created to see if they disbelieve and again the first time an illusion hits them. This is a tradition froM the death test two rules. With most parties having a smart wizard, illusions cost the right amount and a summon bear or giant will often be the better route for a wizard who fighting any group with an IQ above eight.