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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2012 17:17:40 GMT -5
here's something an old fart once said to me in my youth: "if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle." there. i said uncle
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Post by klingor on Aug 14, 2012 13:39:08 GMT -5
Hi Folks, My take on the situation is this :- A character can be in one of 4 physical states (fatigue loss is ignored for this) 1) Irrecoverably dead - has sustained physical damage (PD) >= 2 X ST 2) Dead but recoverable - 2 X ST > PD > ST 3) Unconscious - PD = ST 4) Conscious - PD < ST Reverse Death applies to someone in state 2. Heal wounds applies to someone in states 3 or 4 only. A character in state 2 can remain there for 15 minutes. After that, if he has not been healed in some way up to state 3 or 4, he is irrecoverably dead. As 1 Fat point can be used to heal 1 point of PD, the fatigue cost would be the cost to reduce the PD back to the character's ST. Example A ST 10 character gets hit for 15 points of damage (ouch) so PD = 15. He is now in state 2. The rest of the party has 15 minutes to reduce this to PD = 10 so that he transitions to state 3 otherwise he becomes irrecoverably dead. Using Reverse Death, the fatigue cost would be 5 (15 - 10). (NB In all of my posts, I use remaining ST (RST) = 0 as the indicator of unconsciousness - it is a sort of Limbo state between being awake (RST > 0) and dead (RST < 0). RST = Orig ST - (PD + Fatigue).) An unconscious character will recover fatigue loss over time and so recover consciousness through rest if there was a fatigue component which reduced RST to 0 or below. To summarise (pay attention at the back - you'll be asked questions later!) Heal Wounds only works on characters who are still alive. Reverse Death only works on characters who are dead but recoverable.
This is only my interpretation but I find it works well Hope you like it. Cheers Colin
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2012 13:49:13 GMT -5
collin, that all sounds like a re-statement of what was already said. however, i feel like taking the bait and i am grateful because of the following: Example A ST 10 character gets hit for 15 points of damage (ouch) so PD = 15. He is now in state 2. The rest of the party has 15 minutes to reduce this to PD = 10 so that he transitions to state 3 otherwise he becomes irrecoverably dead. Using Reverse Death, the fatigue cost would be 5 (15 - 10). bret's original explanation made me think the FAT cost would be 10 (the character's ST), which made me kinda cold-hearted and likely to leave some people to die indeed, i just double-checked and bret said: now, (with a ST 12 character with 15 pts of damage) spending FAT 3 (or 4) seems more reasonable to me than spending FAT 12...but then, i return to my original question: it's like having 2 spells, one called Lightning Bolt and one called Lightning Missile that do the same damage with the same element and special effects. Why have 2? Simplify and have 1. Without the difference in FAT/ST healed cost, there's no point in having 2 different 'healing spells'.
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Post by mister frau blucher on Aug 14, 2012 14:42:58 GMT -5
If a ST10 dude is knocked to -5, or -1, or -19, the cost to Reverse Death is the same - 10 FT. It is powerful magic, and the spell doesn't care how dead you are (unless unrecoverable) and is not scaleable the way Heal Wounds is.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2012 15:29:49 GMT -5
If a ST10 dude is knocked to -5, or -1, or -19, the cost to Reverse Death is the same - 10 FT. It is powerful magic, and the spell doesn't care how dead you are (unless unrecoverable) and is not scaleable the way Heal Wounds is. i am cool with this. originally, i thought it was too expensive...then i realized that my alternative (2 FAT to heal -1 ST) would be even more expensive if said ST 12 warrior was -7 or more in the hole (grave hole )(-7 * 2 = |14| FAT).
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Post by klingor on Aug 15, 2012 15:38:06 GMT -5
How would assist potions/spells work? If a ST 10 char drank a 5 point Assist ST potion prior to combat and then suffered 5 points of damage, would his ST be 5 or 10 when it wore off? Similarly, if he took 18 points of damage while under the influence (ie still at ST 15 rather than 10) would a Reverse Death (cast while he was still under the influence) cost 10 or 15 Fat.
I'm not trying to be pedantic, simply that when I played TFT originally (before ITL, AM and AW), the GM decided that the Aid spell (if applied to ST) only deferred ST loss till the Aid spell wore off. When I read ITL and Advanced Wizard, it suggested, to me, that the Aid spell acted as a surrogate/cushion during its period of activity and so a character with a 5pt Aid spell who suffered 5 or less points of damage during the spell's lifetime would suffer 0 residual damage when the spell wore off. (Back then, the concept of fatigue and physical damage being treated differently was unheard of - DCG mages don't know how lucky they are!) Cheers, Colin
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2012 16:45:54 GMT -5
here's my opinion (although i know you are wanting bret's) Warrior with ST10 drinks a +5 ST Assist potion. Now, his ST=15. If he takes 18 pts of damage, he is 'in the grave' (15 - 18 = -3). Even if the potion wears off before he dies and it absorbed 5 pts of damage, ST10 - 13D = -3, so however you look at it, he's in the grave and needs Reverse Death. let's say he only took 16 pts of damage while under the influence. ST15 - 16D = -1 (in the grave) but the potion wears off (and absorbed 5 pts of damage)...ST10 - 11D = -1 (in the grave). needs Reverse Death to live. it really doesn't matter if you 'fall into the gave' while 'under the influence'. the resulting -ST is the same both before the potion wears off and after. So, i would allow the 'assisted ST' to count as 'hit points' and physical strength. to me, it's similar to morphing. the morphing spells are written such that:
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2012 17:03:09 GMT -5
oh, and i don't consider it lucky that mages don't have to use their 'hit points' to cast spells. i consider it fair. i utterly detest any system that penalizes magic users so because magic users in those systems are (usually) already at a disadvantage regarding 'hit points', combat, and defense. in those systems, magic users tend to be characters that are no fun to play...and fun is the point of playing. i guess i'm actually one of the few people that thought D&D 4e was GREAT because 'everyone was the same'...the classes were balanced, heroic in proportion, but balanced.
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Post by mister frau blucher on Aug 16, 2012 8:56:22 GMT -5
How would assist potions/spells work? If a ST 10 char drank a 5 point Assist ST potion prior to combat and then suffered 5 points of damage, would his ST be 5 or 10 when it wore off? Similarly, if he took 18 points of damage while under the influence (ie still at ST 15 rather than 10) would a Reverse Death (cast while he was still under the influence) cost 10 or 15 Fat. I'm not trying to be pedantic, simply that when I played TFT originally (before ITL, AM and AW), the GM decided that the Aid spell (if applied to ST) only deferred ST loss till the Aid spell wore off. When I read ITL and Advanced Wizard, it suggested, to me, that the Aid spell acted as a surrogate/cushion during its period of activity and so a character with a 5pt Aid spell who suffered 5 or less points of damage during the spell's lifetime would suffer 0 residual damage when the spell wore off. (Back then, the concept of fatigue and physical damage being treated differently was unheard of - DCG mages don't know how lucky they are!) Cheers, Colin Hey, Colin, This is of course another grayish area in the rules, but i treat it as more of a "cushion" - that is, when the Assist spell wears off, any damage accrued does not apply. In other words, if you are ST 10 and a mage casts a +1 ST Assist spell on you, your ST is 11 for the encounter. You take 2 damage, so your ST is 9. After the encounter, when the spell wears off, your ST is still 9. Likewise with your +5 ST Assist potion. A ST 10 drinks it and becomes ST 15. He takes 3 hits, making him ST 12. When the potion wears off, he is ST 10 again, essentially unwounded. Cheers! Bret
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Post by klingor on Aug 16, 2012 16:49:12 GMT -5
I think we have achieved a consensus now. Reverse Death restores a recoverably dead character to unconsciousness at a fatigue cost of the character's original ST. Assist spells act as a form of pro-active top-up in that they are the first to go if that characteristic is affected during their lifetime and take these changes with them when they go. Reverse Death and Heal Wounds apply in different situations, in different ways and at different costs, which is why they are two separate spells. I think that we've got a result here! Thanks, Ewookie This is a very interesting thread
Cheers Colin
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