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Post by klingor on Aug 18, 2012 8:50:52 GMT -5
Hi guys, In an encounter with an animal or monster, you give ST, Dex, IQ and natural armour, but you don't say if it is a one-hex creature or multi-hex. Up to ST 25 I play as one hex; 40 or over I assume to be three hex if bipedal, four hex otherwise. In between these, sometimes I'm not sure how it was designed to be played. A dragon ST 30 - straightforward 4 hex A giant or an ogre ST 30 - seems 3 hex to me. A demon or a bear ST 30 - ? Another thing I'd like your ideas on are attack modes. Some get one attack mode eg Wolf - Bite 1d6+1, others get two eg Bear - Bite/claws 3d6. Does the bear get two attacks per round and, if so, what are the penalties for multiple attacks. In the case of dragons it is even more complex, as they are described as having both a Breath attack and a Bite/Claws attack. Cheers Colin
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Post by mister frau blucher on Aug 18, 2012 9:42:27 GMT -5
Hey Colin,
Your estimates of hex size are right on - and the demon or bear with a ST of 30 is one hex. Since we don't have rules for multi-hex creatures, it is not a huge deal, but there are more hexes to get beside a larger creature. But even then, most parties would not be able to put seven plus melee guys against a 3 hex or larger foe, so we really haven't spelled this out.
As far as attack modes, the bite/claws thing describes what the attack is, but it does not mean two separate attacks. The dragons separate modes of attack are either/or. Any time a creature or man gets multiple attacks, it is spelled out in the encounter.
Cheers! Bret
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2012 17:36:09 GMT -5
i agree with everything bret said. these are just additional thoughts: - usually the size doesn't matter but i think it should when using Illusion or Image spells. Illusion-1 should not be able to create an illusion of a giant or dragon, unless it is a baby giant or dragon (with appropriate 'baby' stats) - ST doesn't even enter into my thoughts on how big something is. basically, i just ask myself if the 'critter' would fit into a 5' x 5' box or circle. to help visualize that, i am 5'11". my arm-span is 6'. (anyone's arm-span should be very close to their height). i spread my arms out and look to either side. then, i ask myself, "would that critter fit in that space?" SIDENOTE: colin, if you ever have to make a network cable of X length, using your arm-span is a great 'on-the-fly' measuring system
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2012 18:06:40 GMT -5
more thoughts... some things like 'giant spiders' may present a problem to my visualization method. i guess in cases like that, i would look to ST for guidance. i generally think of giant spiders as fitting in a 5x5 box but the larger ones could be, well, larger (i forget her name but the giant spider frodo and sam encountered in Return of the King i think is larger than one-space while the spiders that bilbo and dwarves encountered in Mirkwood (in The Hobbit) i think were not that large (one-space))
this makes me realize that i could use Illusion-1 to create any one-space creature i have encountered (have stats for)...hehehehe
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2012 18:31:29 GMT -5
P.S. i think of an ogre as being one-space. i sometimes reference 'other' game systems too which leads one to say ogres take up more than once space, but that doesn't seem quite right to me. they have varied in size over the ages but they are described as being 8 to 10 feet tall. it seems like they could fit into a 5x5 box but they do have a 10' reach which seems reasonable (but kind of a stretch LOL) so, i guess in fairness, it would not be reasonable to allow Illusion-1 to mimick an ogre.
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Post by klingor on Oct 9, 2012 18:17:59 GMT -5
Hi, The reason I asked about creature size was for high-level missile spells. A wizard with IQ 16 casting Lightning-3 against a hex 3-4 creature could target all the hexes he could see in the same round. The fatigue cost is proportionately greater but the damage is immediate, rather than inflicted over several rounds. Even if the fatigue costs for the multi-level spells were brought in as a linear multiple of the 1-hex version, it gives the multi-level spells a great advantage eg 2 wizards each IQ16 and staffs fully charged, hit a 4 or 7 hex dragon from the side with Lightning-3 using 4F per strike ie 6 individual Lightning-1 causing 4d6 damage each. Each strike causes, on average, 14 points of damage => 84 points of damage. Natural armour will apply to each individual strike, but even a 7-hex dragon (armour 5) will suffer 54 damage points on average in that round, and the wizards haven't even depleted their staffs. Unfortunately then, it seems that size IS important (and not in a nice way). Cheers Colin
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2012 19:01:33 GMT -5
hey, that's a good point. it sure took you a long time to come up with that reason for asking i never thought about Lightning and etc. as actually attacking 'a space' before. i always thought about it as 'a target in one space' or 'multiple targets in multiple spaces'. i thought that way because the other systems i'm familiar with usually word such spells in terms of targets. however, the wording of the spells does describe them as attacking hex-spaces. man. did i say that's a good point? this makes those 3-7 hex missile spells very powerful. i have to wonder if they were meant to be _so_ powerful.
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Post by mister frau blucher on Oct 10, 2012 9:03:44 GMT -5
Colin,
This is a great point. I did not comprehend this is what you were getting at.
This is definitely not what was intended, though, with the multiple hex spells. These spells were intended to spread out the effect to encompass more enemies. We did not intend for it to do triple or more damage to larger creatures. I definitely see where you get the reading of this through "spaces," though.
Gah! We'll have to examine the wording, here...
Bret
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2012 12:01:48 GMT -5
that's what i was guessing was intended. here's an idea that would leave wording as is and allow the spells to work to their 'logical conclusions'...up the Fatigue cost of multi-hex missile spells.
for example, Fireball-3 is "2x cost of Fireball-1" in fatigue. make <Missile Spell>-3 cost 3x instead. <Missile Spell>-7 cost 4x instead. i'll double-check when i get a chance but i think those minor cost adjustments would bring some 'balance to the force'.
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Post by klingor on Oct 10, 2012 14:55:52 GMT -5
Thanks for your feedback, guys. I didn't think that it was intended to affect Multi-hex creatures this way, and when I play using the spell, I've modified the spell to be such that the area encompassed by 1 spell is determined by contiguous hexes as defined by the caster's IQ but each hex actually targeted (a) costs the Fat of the level 1 spell and (b) must be in line of sight from the caster. As a rule of thumb, I use 2 hexes targetable on a 3+ hex creature (3 on a 7+ hex creature if the caster has surprise). Even with the extra fatigue costs, these are still hellishly powerful spells. (As an aside, I also limit the fatigue storeable in a wizard's staff to his ST rather than his IQ - a wizard can reach IQ 16 or 18 relatively quickly and if he has a staff with equal fatigue to cast the spells at those levels, he becomes overwhelmingly powerful.) Cheers Colin
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2012 14:59:35 GMT -5
to make sure we are all looking at things the same way, i want to simplify and take smaller steps through this example. let's say there is one wizard attacking a 3-hex Ogre. under current rules...
Using Lightning-1, this wizard can spend 1F to inflict 1d6 damage. Using Lightning-1, this wizard can spend 2F to inflict 2d6 damage. Using Lightning-1, this wizard can spend 3F to inflict 3d6 damage. Using Lightning-1, this wizard can spend 4F to inflict 4d6 damage.
Using Lightning-3, this wizard can spend 2F to inflict 1d6 damage over 3 of the hexes the Ogre occupies. This is equivalent to spending 2F to inflict 3d6 damage. (you can't spend 3F on Lightning-3) Using Lightning-3, this wizard can spend 4F to inflict 2d6 damage over 3 of the Ogre's hexes. This is equivalent to spending 4F to inflict 6d6 damage. (you can't spend 5F on Lightning-3) Using Lightning-3, this wizard can spend 6F to inflict 3d6 damage over 3 of the Ogre's hexes. This is equivalent to spending 6F to inflict 9d6 damage. (you can't spend 7F on Lightning-3; 8F is the maximum you can spend) Using Lightning-3, this wizard can spend 8F to inflict 4d6 damage over 3 of the Ogre's hexes. This is equivalent to spending 8F to inflict 12d6 damage.
Lightning-7...3F...1d6 per hex over 7 hexes = 7d6 damage to 7-hex critter Lightning-7...6F...2d6 per hex over 7 hexes = 14d6 damage to 7-hex critter etc. (please correct me if i'm not computing something above correctly)
so, looking at all of that, here's what i would want to do: (Lightning-3 has a 3F minimum and a 6F maximum) Lightning-3...IQ16...3/6F...Does D6 damage for every 3F spent to each hex in 3 contiguous hexes. [the maximum damage to each hex is 2d6; 6d6 overall]
(Lightning-7 has a 5F minimum and a 10F maximum) Lightning-7...IQ18...5/10F...Does D6 damage for every 4F spent to each hex in 7 contiguous hexes. [the maximum damage to each hex is 2d6; 14d6 overall]
EDIT: dang! that lightning-7 is still extremely powerful...hmm...
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Post by klingor on Oct 10, 2012 15:13:28 GMT -5
Essentially, the character's IQ determines how many contiguous spaces are targetable, it is the no. of spaces actually targeted that determines the cost.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2012 15:21:05 GMT -5
may be it would be simpler and best to leave the numbers as they are and just define the missile spells in terms of targets instead of spaces. i wouldn't stipulate that the targets need to be adjacent (or contiguous) to each other (or even in line-of-sight). when i think of a wizard casting lightning, i don't picture the lightning coming out of his hand. i picture each bolt coming down from above.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2012 15:22:11 GMT -5
Essentially, the character's IQ determines how many contiguous spaces are targetable, it is the no. of spaces actually targeted that determines the cost. so an IQ18 wizard can target 18 contiguous spaces?
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Post by klingor on Oct 10, 2012 15:30:36 GMT -5
ewookie As per LAW rules L-1 : costs 1-4 F : does 1-4d6 dam on 1 space L-3 : costs 2-8 F : does 1-4d6 dam on each of up to 3 spaces (buy 2 get 1 free - a good deal) L-7 : costs 3-12 F : does 1-4d6 dam on each of up to 7 spaces (buy 3 get 4 free - a very good deal) Cheers Colin
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