Skill Level 0

[klingor]

Hey guys,
I've always liked the idea (I think I got it from TFT/ITL) that an unlearned skill could be attempted at 3d6-4 against the relevant attribute (the effects of getting it wrong could be catastrophic (eg herbalist ))- comes down to gamesmaster fiat). Unlearned skills I treat as level -1.
Learning a skill at level 0 (10XP if you don't have it) removes the -4 penalty (and no catastrophes because you know your limitations), after that it becomes 10XP or 20XP per level depending on your character type.
This also seems to mesh with the choice between having a character as a wizard or a warrior/fighter. I prefer to class them as Arcane/Mundane. Arcane characters start with combat/weapon skills at level -1 ie need to spend 10 XP to bring them to level 0. Mundane characters start with all weapon/physical skills at level 0, the skill points on character creation are added on top of this.
Cheers
Colin

[Deleted]

i think situations could definitely arise in an adventure where a penalty on a check would make sense. however, as a blanket rule, i would be against this. especially in the case of combat/weapon skills and mages. it is already hard enough for my old mage to rap the noggin of some young punk with his cane.

[klingor]

Hi,
My thoughts were along the lines of that Clubs/Staffs are just bits of mass- lumps of wood, if you will - other weapons are just so much mass. It is only when you learn to hold a sword by the hilt and use the sharp bits at the other end to hit the enemy that it becomes a sword. That's why I like to have the concept of a level 0 - it says you know which end of the weapon does the damage.
Compare a mace and a sword - both have a heavier end and a lighter end.
The mace has a lighter handle because the weight (STW/Heft) is concentrated at the business end. The sword has a relatively heavy handle but lighter blade has the ability to hack/maim/kill.
I think this difference should be reflected in the rules - that Wizards/Mages/Arcanes whatever, are at DX-4 for any physical weapon unless it is a club/staff (= designer club!)
Cheers
Colin

[Deleted]

i suppose that helps the mage out...but it's getting complicated. you've introduced a rule that hurts players/characters and the adventure author, then introduced an exception for mages. doesn't seem right. i would be OK with a -1 for no skill level or even 4/DX (or IQ) for no skill level...but not -4. that's just downright mean, man!

[klingor]

I don't think I have clearly explained what I was trying to achieve. Mea culpa.
To me, in the LAW world, all magic comes from knowing Sorceror's Tongue - it is a prerequisite for being able to use any spells.
Since this a benefit that a character gets when he opts to be a mage, I feel that there should be some deficit that offsets this advantage. The system in TFT/ITL seemed to fit - that anyone could use a club/staff/dagger (I'd forgotten about dagger in my post) at basic DX, and using any other weapon, without having the appropriate skill, incurred a -4DX penalty (though back then, it was skill or no skill - no levels within skills unlike LAW).
The balances and counterbalances are these:-
A Mage gets Sorceror's Tongue free, but is at every weapon skill level -1 and uses all weapons at -4 DX (or whatever penalty). He has to learn skill 0 to use them at his own basic DX.
A Warrior (ie non-Mage) gets all weapon skills at level 0 ie can use them at basic DX to hit. If he wants to be able to cast spells, he must first learn Sorceror's Tongue, then the individual spells.
To me, it's all about checks and balances - I don't like the idea that a mage who has spent his life in study can pick up a sword and know which end is which. Limiting him to clubs/staff/dagger at basic DX and all other weapons at -4, when the character is created, makes for a sharper delineation between mages and warriors.
An alternative view would be the Runequest route, whereby all characters can learn all skills and all spells for the same cost cf weapon skills, battle magic and other skills (more thoughts on this anon!!).
Cheers
Colin

[Deleted]

but a mage that has 'spent his life in study' is going to start with a low DX and ST...which is a penalty in itself when it comes to using any weapon. if he starts with a DX or ST higher than 10, apparently he did a little more than studying.

i look at this way: a mage that goes on adventures is not your typical bookworm/librarian mage.

i think things are pretty well balanced as it is. my mage typically doesn't participate in battle unless he casts a spell because he already stinks at combat. since half the skills are DX based and half are IQ based and also searches are IQ based, I opt to give my starting mage ST10 DX8 IQ14.