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Post by falcon on Sept 12, 2012 22:49:52 GMT -5
I have played around with TFT rules alittle and have come up with some ideas. Some I've play tested and others not so much but I'm trying to come up with expanding the LAW rules so I can use the Law system instead of ITL. I'm looking for some thoughts on what I've done so far. I don't want to overlook something because I'm new to LAW. I've combined somethings from diffrent places which you will reconize. Anyway my first topic is Base Dice/Critical success & Failure, and Positive Dice. Base Dice and Critical Success/Failure/Positive Dice Since most of the tests are made with 3d6 rolls but you have the possibility of rolling more dice I’ve come up with this idea of Base Dice. The Base dice are the first three dice you always use and that is what critical rolls are derived from and so should be a different color. When you roll 4d6 then the extra die is a different color from the Base Dice. A critical success is a roll of 3 or 4 and a critical failure is 11 or 12 on the Base Dice. For example I’m a thief and want to pick a 5/DX + Skill lock. I have to roll 14 or under so I add two dice to my Base Dice for a total of 5d6, but they are a different color than the Base Dice. I roll and get a total of 13 so I succeed. The three Base Dice come up a 4 so it’s a critical success. Damage on a critical hit is +1d for a roll of 4 and +2d on a roll of 3. On a critical failure the weapon is dropped on a 4 and broken on a 3(unless magical). A critical failure on a spell has the opposite effect. You must succeed on the roll with all the dice for you to get a critical success regardless of the Base Dice. On a check test between two subjects there are no critical successes/failures. Now this brings me to a new dice called the positive dice. The positive dice is an extra dice you roll and then you take an unfavorable dice away from the result. For example I have my thief and want to pick that 5/DX + skill lock. My thief has the talent Fine Motors Skills which gives him one Positive Dice (1+D). So he rolls 6/DX + skill and he needs a 14 or less. The roll comes up 1, 2, 2, 4, 5, and 6. I take the 6 away for a total of 14; I just barely pick the lock. Positive Dice are not Base Dice. The GM or talents/items might give you more than one Positive Dice; (1+D) = 1d6, (2+D) = 2d6, etc. Positive Dice can stack if the situation dictates. I wanted to do something diffrent then just giving something a +1, +2, +3 that is why I came up with the Positive Dice. What do you think?
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Post by klingor on Sept 14, 2012 15:28:58 GMT -5
Hi, I like the idea of positive dice, but I think that using that should be like using a Karma point or a wish, perhaps even some number of XP. I think it's a great idea and well worth thinking about. Cheers Colin
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Post by falcon on Sept 14, 2012 17:30:20 GMT -5
Thanks Colin, When I've used the positive dice in the past sometimes the results were to good for the player, but using Karma/Wish might just be the trick. I'll give it a try. Hey, do you know if anyone has a list of Talents/Advantages for the game? I'm working on one now but am always intrested in what other people come up with. My main concern is having enough that it adds to the game but not to much that it bogs it down. I like things simple but want the Characters to have a liitle more room to grow. As of right now I brainstormed around 30. Thanks again, Craig
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Post by falcon on Sept 26, 2012 9:22:09 GMT -5
Ok how about this. It's called a Karma Dice and you spend a Karma point to use it. You roll one extra dice and take the undesirable dice away. This should work well with winning a check. Also one thing I disliked after playing GURPS for a along time is the skill levels getting so high that a player could make eye shots all day long without missing. So I came up with this idea, a skill level can never exceed 1/2 its related attribute rounded down. So if a player has a DX13 his sword skill level cannot exceed +6. Good or not so good an idea? I also have rules for aimed shots so this is why I want to keep the skill level under controll.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2012 10:18:25 GMT -5
i like the karma dice.
the skill level limit proposed does not seem effective to me, as the mathematically logical practice should be to increase Attributes before heavily investing in most skills (even without skill level limits, more so with skill level limits) because Attributes have more influence over a skill check than the actual skill level (unless your skill level is higher than the related Attribute). Plus, increasing DEX or IQ affects multiple skills instead of just one.
i consider the Bow skill to encompass 'aimed shots'. Increasing a character's Bow skill represents a character 'being good with a bow'. What makes one 'good with a bow'? Aim. depending on how 'aimed shot' rules are implemented, it could be that you are effectively applying your Bow skill twice.
disclaimer: i am a 'non-TFT' person. never played it.
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Post by mister frau blucher on Sept 26, 2012 13:51:36 GMT -5
Hey, Falcon,
Some interesting points.
Did you mean a critical failure would occur on a 17 or 18, instead of an 11 or 12? Given the bell curve, 11's and 12's come up pretty often on 3d6.
Elsewhere on here we have mentioned the +1d6 on a 4 and and +2d6 on a 3; that is what I do in my games. It makes more sense than the double/triple damage from TFT, I think.
maybe I am a softie, but I haven't implemented critical fumbles. Nothing wrong with the concept. Completing the adventures can be tough enough as it is, though!
The positive dice/karma dice are intriguing. With a Karma point you normally reroll all the dice, but re-rolling just one (or having the accompanying karma dice) allows you to fine-tune the situation a bit more. The concept of the positive dice from Talents is interesting - may have to try this out.
As far as the limit on skill levels, not a bad concept, but I think ewookie is right in that there is a bit of a self-correcting mechanism here. Skill levels are great, but before someone spends the xp to raise their sword skill to +6, they will in all likelihood raise their DX several times first, as it applies to many skills.
Thanks for the great post!
Bret
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2012 20:05:51 GMT -5
Elsewhere on here we have mentioned the +1d6 on a 4 and and +2d6 on a 3; that is what I do in my games. It makes more sense than the double/triple damage from TFT, I think. hmmm... i may take on that ROCk Troll after all... at the same time, this reinforces my inclination to consider TFT to be war-gaming rules. double and triple damage would kill folks off left and right. that has a war-game feel to me. you expect people to die but don't care as long as 'your side' wins.
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Post by falcon on Sept 27, 2012 9:40:23 GMT -5
Thanks guys for your feedback. The more I think about having a skill limit level, its just more book keeping anyway, the less I like it. As with the critical failure I did mean 17 & 18 not 11 & 12. So this brings me to LAW Talents. I have made a list of about 45 of them. This would not be the same as skills, I think the list in LAW is about right so there is no need to add to the list. You would start out picking one at the beginning of PC creation, then you could buy some later with XP. I am debating on weather they are to powerful or not. The talents are meant to give the PC the "IT" factor, its what makes the player a cut above the rest. I will post this and then put out the first five as to not throw to much stuff at you.
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Post by falcon on Sept 27, 2012 9:49:10 GMT -5
*Pick one of these talents at the beginning of character creation. You can buy some later on at 20XP between adventures. You cannot buy one more than once .Each Talent has an IQ, DX, or ST stat by it with a number. That stat is the stat which correlates to the talent and the number is the minimal level you need to acquire that talent. So an IQ 12 means you need your IQ to be 12 before you can buy that talent. Actor (IQ 12): You have the ability to make people think you are someone other than yourself. Win an IQ check against the subject/subjects that you are trying to persuade. The player is also good at disguise. You get a Karma Dice for free for that roll. Alertness (IQ 10): You get a +3 to your IQ rolls to notice something like an ambush. Ambidexterity (DX 12): You roll 3/DX with your off hand instead of 4/DX. Armor Aptitude (DX 11): You have trained extensively with your armor on. You have one less Restriction penalty then the armor you are wearing normally would give. Beast Friend (IQ 12): You can spend Karma for one of your befriended animals.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2012 10:07:38 GMT -5
Thanks guys for your feedback. The more I think about having a skill limit level, its just more book keeping anyway, the less I like it. As with the critical failure I did mean 17 & 18 not 11 & 12. So this brings me to LAW Talents. I have made a list of about 45 of them. This would not be the same as skills, I think the list in LAW is about right so there is no need to add to the list. You would start out picking one at the beginning of PC creation, then you could buy some later with XP. I am debating on weather they are to powerful or not. The talents are meant to give the PC the "IT" factor, its what makes the player a cut above the rest. I will post this and then put out the first five as to not throw to much stuff at you. i'm really glad you posted that. i've seen this 'Talent' word thrown about and thought people meant 'Skill'. thanks for cluing me in.
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Post by falcon on Sept 27, 2012 17:26:24 GMT -5
In TFT they kind of mixed skills with talents(advantages). To me a talent is something your born with and a skill is something you learn.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2012 23:14:40 GMT -5
Thanks Colin, When I've used the positive dice in the past sometimes the results were to good for the player, but using Karma/Wish might just be the trick. I'll give it a try. Hey, do you know if anyone has a list of Talents/Advantages for the game? I'm working on one now but am always intrested in what other people come up with. My main concern is having enough that it adds to the game but not to much that it bogs it down. I like things simple but want the Characters to have a liitle more room to grow. As of right now I brainstormed around 30. Thanks again, Craig hey, i don't know if you have or want the list of Talents from In The Labyrinth but i thought i would throw this link i just found out here... www.scribd.com/doc/62744369/In-the-Labyrinthi have found Melee and Wizard on scribd too... www.scribd.com/doc/40015287/The-Fantasy-Trip-Meleewww.scribd.com/doc/40015393/The-Fantasy-Trip-Wizard
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Post by klingor on Oct 26, 2012 15:20:57 GMT -5
Guys, In a private conversation with ewookie, he mentioned an idea re skills which I totally agree with. A check + skill is a roll vs the relevant attribute (St,Dex,IQ) plus the any appropriate skills, as per LAW. A check AGAINST a skill is a 3d6 roll against 10+skill level. I think that this is a great idea. Cheers Colin
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2012 17:26:53 GMT -5
wow. you know, that's not how i remembered the idea but looking at PMs that is what i said...and i like it! however, i think that could work very well for regular LAW. since i've been pulled into this discussion now, i'd like to share my thoughts on the whole LAW Advanced idea... when i read through these forums, i get the impression that there are 2, maybe 3 camps of people: 1) people content with LAW as it is but just have some things that they think would be cool to have in an adventure. 2) people that would like to see LAW developed and fleshed out into a more 'full-bodied' RPG on par with D&D, etc. A system/mechanic/set of rules catered to this bunch, i would call LAW-RPG. 3) people that would like to see LAW developed and fleshed out to more like the 'full-bodied' version of TFT. A system/mechanic/set of rules catered to this bunch, i would call LAW-WRPG (War Role Playing Game) because it most closely resembles TFT and it seems pretty obvious to me that TFT was designed (in the beginning) for 2 or more players to build armies/squads of characters and fight against each other (sort of WarCraft3-style). Because of these different 'camps' or angles, i think discussing 'LAW Advanced' may be like trying to build the Tower of Babel. I count myself in all 3 camps. I think Camp1 will get their hearts desires without changing anything old or creating anything new system/mechanic -wise. With respect to Camps2 (LAW-RPG) and Camps3 (LAW-WRPG), I would love to see both 'cultures' get their wish. However, if i had to pick between the 2, i would pick LAW-RPG. To develop a 'LAW-RPG', i really think the ranges of stats/skills need to expand so that character have more room to grow and differentiate themselves from other characters. The simplest way to expand the possible ranges (from the cheap-seats of my mind) is to use more dice in a standard roll or use bigger dice. I lean toward using bigger dice, in particular, percentile dice. My second favored approach would be to just make 4d6 the standard instead of 3d6. Using percentile dice or 4d6, the basic mechanics can remain the same. My least favored approach would be to something similar to Tunnels and Trolls where, basically, instead of bonuses to rolls, you get additional dice. The reason this is my least favored approach...It's hard for me to look forward to the day when my character grows powerful enough that he/she can/must roll 10d6 for one simple check. i wrote this in a hurried and tired frame of mind so forgive me if i have rambled, laugh _with_ me if i said something foolish, and i may add more later...but it's 5:25pm on a Friday. I'm ready to leave work and have a beer! Ewookie says 'ARH ARH ARH!' and 'Peace-Out!'
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2012 21:37:49 GMT -5
concerning Camp1, i include in that desires to 'tweak' a few things in LAW or 'expand' LAW without changing the rules used for programmed adventures. maybe this 'expansion' is what is meant by LAW Advanced. if so, i would call this endeavor LAW-Expanded or Expanded LAW. seems more descriptive of the goal, lowers any expectations of anything radically different than 'Core' LAW, and it's more original than following D&D's naming convention.
concerning Camp2 (LAW-RPG), i must amend my die preferences. d20 first preference...same as percentile but less transparent and less room to grow but there is no bell curve so there is still plenty of incentive to grow even if stats/skills are at 14. percentile (2d10) second preference...makes the math/probabilities very transparent, for users and authors and LOTS of room to grow. my d20 ideas are not of the 'generate a score between 1-20 and compute a bonus' D&D variety. the idea is to use the same 'roll below X' mechanic but with a d20 instead of 3d6. d10s and d20s are very versatile though. you can, with enough rolls and division, approximate every other type of die with d10s and d20s. i suppose you can do the same thing with any die but our brains tend to be trained for efficiency with base 10 math. the nice thing about d20 though is that it is also a d10. roll d20 and ignore the tens place/digit. easy to do d20 and percentile stuff with d20. yet, rolling 2d10 isn't the same as rolling 1d20 because there is a small curve resulting from rolling 2 die and adding them together.
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