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Post by joereynolds on Sept 23, 2012 7:19:53 GMT -5
I've landed myself into playing a lot of AD&D recently, I'm still fairly newbish at it, but if there's one thing that's particularly befuddling, it's incorporating miniatures into combat. I'm assuming a lot of the guys on here grew up playing D&D so how did you handle this? I'm mainly talking about movement, attacks etc... It just seems the players handbook wasn't designed for miniature use (although it does mention them) It would be great to get the LAW combat rules in but the hex grids make it a bit complicated
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2012 11:31:19 GMT -5
hey joe! just so i can sync my point of reference with yours, what version of the D&D players handbook are you using?
it seems that D&D has always tried to leave the use of miniatures as optional. however, as it has progressed from 1st edition to 4th edition, it seems to me that the rules get more and more designed with miniatures in mind.
also, there is a separate product called D&D Miniatures. if you buy a starter pack, you get around 4 minis, a map, and a rulebook. i have all of the regular D&D manuals (1e thru 4e) but i have never perused this D&D Miniatures rule-book. i would think it would be very easily incorporated into regular D&D.
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Post by joereynolds on Sept 24, 2012 6:46:49 GMT -5
Hey ewookie, I'm playing AD&D 2nd edition right now so any info regarding that system would be great If I remember correctly the D&D miniatures book was designed for 3 and 3.5 though wasn't it? If it's just a general rulebook about the miniatures then I may have to have a look
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2012 8:33:05 GMT -5
hey, that's cool. 2nd edition is the last version i ever actually played...and makes sense with your question.
i think the D&D Miniatures sold today would be more designed with 4e in mind. however, that doesn't mean it wouldn't useful to you. Of course, not all of it will be applicable or even adaptable but most of it should (i think). i have seen the starter packs on amazon for $15.
i was always turned off by D&D miniature-play because it seemed to me that worrying about which direction a character is facing and all of that flanking stuff, etc. would bog down play. i really like LAW because it only includes the basic necessities regarding minis...just enough to make things fun and interesting. I'm not really sure how 'detailed' you want your miniature play to be, but the basics should be fairly simple to wing.
i will try to look through my manuals tonight and offer my findings and suggestions if you desire.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2012 8:43:21 GMT -5
(of course, if anyone else with more experience with D&D and miniatures wants to chime in with info for joe, please do.)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2012 8:51:43 GMT -5
your mentioning of the hex vs. square grid issues above puzzles me though. forgive me if i seem to insult your knowledge with the following but i have no idea what you know and don't know...
1 hex space = 5ft = 1 square space
i'm thinking the biggest challenge with 2e will be picking a formula for determining a (N)PC's Speed. as i recall, 2e did not assign this attribute to characters. i know 4e does. not sure about 3-3.5e. this is one of those things i would look in the >3e manuals tonight for guidance on. i can't remember if 2e offered any ranges for thrown and missile weapons either. surely it does but i will check and compare with >3e rules.
EDIT: btw, Speed would be the number of spaces a character can move in one turn.
are there any other specific items you are wandering how to handle?
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Post by mister frau blucher on Sept 24, 2012 10:08:06 GMT -5
Hey, Joe,
I've played D&D from the white box to 3E. Never messed with 4E - not putting it down, just into other things.
Miniatures were more a luxury at the dawn of the game, even though it grew out of wargaming. For AD&D, first and second edition, they were more for just keeping track of where you were in relation to the rest of the party, and who was in or out of the radius of a fireball.
Definitely the game was less concerned with tactical aspects than Melee (and subsequently, LAW).
It was Third Edition that all that changed, with tactical play becoming hardwired into the game (with combat feats and AOO's, etc.). The Miniatures handbook was a 3E-era supplement.
That being said, however, every DM ran things a bit differently, so it is no surprise that some 1E or 2E DMs favored the use of miniatures. I remember that movement in 1E was given in inches, I think that was the case with 2E. Not as easy as a grid for movement, but more freeform.
I guess we would need to know a little more about what your DM is expecting through the use of minis. If he is looking at more precision in establishing where evryone is in relation to spell effects, shouldn't be that big a deal. But if he is wanting more accuracy in tactical combat, I may have to break out my old D&D 2E books!
Back in the day, the two systems (D&D and Melee) scratched two different itches, so i never did a lot tactically with D&D.
Sorry, that is not much help, Joe, but maybe with a little more info we can help.
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Post by joereynolds on Sept 24, 2012 10:23:44 GMT -5
No worries guys, I am the DM, and I'd like to be able to think tactically about the combat just as your game allows. I'd like movement to be quantified nicely so I know who can move how much. At the moment I'm just converting movement rates into 'squares' that i've drawn on gridded paper. Each square would usually equal 20 feet,i find this works best as it allows the character to move around but not to the whole width and length of the room. There are some scaling issues though, once a scene has been drawn, a table (during combat) is theoretically 80 foot long!
edit: ewookie, everything has base movement rates in 2e, the only speed during combat is the speed factor of a weapon and I've just simply converted movement rate to squares. Humans base movement rate is 12, therefore 120 feet in combat. I will either make the combat area to a scale of 10 or 20 feet depending on how much paper I have ;D
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2012 10:34:32 GMT -5
i can't help but ask... why are you making 1 square = 20ft? it is typically 5ft, so a table that is 4 squares long (that's a long table either way you look at it) would be 20ft long instead of 80. does 120 feet of movement in a 6-15 second time period seem rational to you? 12ft seems more rational to me as a base movement rate, but on the low side. i don't know if DEX is factored into that 12 movement rate. if it isn't, i would let each +1 bonus from DEX add 5 to movement rate...human with DEX 12 would have a MR of 17 (or 3 spaces that are 5ft)
however, i think what i would really want to do is let each +1 bonus of DEX add to the movement rate. then divide the MR by 2. so, a human with DEX 12 would have a MR of 13. divided by 2 would = 6 spaces (space=5ft; 6 spaces = 30ft).scratch that MR/2 + DEX bonus = no. of spaces that can be moved per turn. a human with DEX 12 could move 7 spaces per turn (12/2 +1). then, i'd come up with some formula for letting armor affect that.scratch that too throw the 2e MR out the window. MR = DEX/2. each point of worn armor decreases MR by 1 point. MR = no of spaces that can be moved in one turn. (this should look familiar i love LAW!) EDIT: 4e uses the term 'Speed' in place of MR. Speed = no. of squares
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Post by mister frau blucher on Sept 24, 2012 11:22:49 GMT -5
Joe,
I definitely need to go back and refresh my memory, but in D&D time was broken up a bit. 10 minute turns, 1 minute rounds and 6-second segments. That 120 feet of movement seems like it was an exploratory, non-combat pace. When combat was a factor, that movement rate changed.
But it has been years - I could very well be mis-rememboring! I think i recall where my books are - I'll scout around tonight.
Even though, maybe you should think about re-scaling, anyway? You are the DM, amigo - what you say goes!
Bret
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2012 11:50:52 GMT -5
Joe, I definitely need to go back and refresh my memory, but in D&D time was broken up a bit. 10 minute turns, 1 minute rounds and 6-second segments. That 120 feet of movement seems like it was an exploratory, non-combat pace. When combat was a factor, that movement rate changed. But it has been years - I could very well be mis-rememboring! I think i recall where my books are - I'll scout around tonight. Even though, maybe you should think about re-scaling, anyway? You are the DM, amigo - what you say goes! Bret that sounds right to my memory too. i always hated that terminology because i naturally think of a 'turn' as somebody's chance to do something. this is another reason why i love LAW. normally, when i say 'turn' that is what i'm thinking of. in this case, it would be the 6-second segment. i'm glad i'm not the only one that thinks joe needs to re-scale.
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Post by joereynolds on Sept 24, 2012 13:39:04 GMT -5
The movement rating does change, from yards during general exploration into feet during combat. It states
" In combat, a being a can upto 10 times its movement rating in feet" A Humans base movement rate is 12 (I'm ingoring encumbrance rules), therefore 120 feet. If i did do the 5foot squares as you mentioned ewookie, I think I would find that the characters were able to travel extreme distances. Whereas, putting the scale upto 20 feet allows the characters to not travel further on the map itself.
Remember, this all has to fit on an A4 size of gridded paper so space needs to be used optimally, and with 5ft squares as my scale, I'm not sure if i could fit a scene onto that A4 size and still have enough space for enemies and players to navigate around each other. I think that by allowing enough space, we can think more tactically about it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2012 13:48:46 GMT -5
as far as re-scaling and fitting rooms on paper goes...you can always use multiple sheets of paper. example: 80x55ft room (with 1" squares that are equal to 5ft per square) would be two 8.5x11" sheets of paper side-by-side.
in fact, there are multiple places on the web where you can download and print 'dungeon tiles' and cut them out. i will try to muster up some links if interested. the common practice seems to be to glue these printed-out tiles onto foamboard and cut them out. i have not done this but i've thought about printing them out, laminating them, gluing foam-sheets or felt to the bottom (to prevent slipping and sliding). the lamination gives you the ability to draw on your nicely printed tiles with dry-erase markers. (note: lamination does not require a lamination machine. just the lamination sheets and a clothes iron)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2012 13:51:53 GMT -5
The movement rating does change, from yards during general exploration into feet during combat. It states " In combat, a being a can upto 10 times its movement rating in feet" A Humans base movement rate is 12 (I'm ingoring encumbrance rules), therefore 120 feet. If i did do the 5foot squares as you mentioned ewookie, I think I would find that the characters were able to travel extreme distances. Whereas, putting the scale upto 20 feet allows the characters to not travel further on the map itself. Remember, this all has to fit on an A4 size of gridded paper so space needs to be used optimally, and with 5ft squares as my scale, I'm not sure if i could fit a scene onto that A4 size and still have enough space for enemies and players to navigate around each other. I think that by allowing enough space, we can think more tactically about it. i must be confused. if one square = 20ft then your characters are moving further than with one square = 5ft. it looks like we both posted at the same time. read my last post. i would have to wonder if the "10 times MR" quote is a mis-print or misunderstanding. i am 5'11". my running stride is 5' or at least it used to be in my leaner 20s. (i worked for a land surveyor in my 20s, so i have measured this). therefore, while running, i would travel about 5' per second. over 6 seconds, this would be 30ft. that is an all-out run carrying no equipment.
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Post by joereynolds on Sept 24, 2012 13:56:56 GMT -5
Sorry, my phrasing was a bit off. They would be moving further in feet yes, but physically on the game board if each square were 5 foot, they could move practically anywhere
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