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Post by jlv61560 on Apr 10, 2014 13:07:10 GMT -5
I was kind of assuming that the rule about FAT + ST loss would remain in effect, but efficiency should still decline with increased FAT. Furthermore, I don't think FAT alone should cause you to go unconscious -- once you hit max FAT, even a single point of ST loss would take you down, but prior to that, you still can operate (though at a serious disadvantage). It becomes another form of Resource Management for the player at that point.
The way it is now, you operate at 100% until you suddenly clonk out. What I think nukesnipe and I are talking about, is the steady decline in capability that arises from steadily increasing FAT as reflected in DX penalties. And possibly other consequences (e.g., like not being able to cast any more spells once your FAT is maxed out). And then I digressed by then discussing more formalized FAT and Wound recovery rates/standards.
It occurs to me that this statement might require some explanation: "Furthermore, I don't think FAT alone should cause you to go unconscious -- once you hit max FAT, even a single point of ST loss would take you down, but prior to that, you still can operate (though at a serious disadvantage)."
My thought here is that when you are in the middle of something exciting (and potentially life threatening) you don't reach the point of suddenly dropping off to sleep just because you are tired. It's when you're supposed to be on guard duty later that it becomes a problem. So suddenly maxing your FAT in the middle of sword fight isn't going to see you slumping to the ground snoring, but any actual wound at that point would pretty much render you useless at that point simply because you can't handle all the extra stress/consequences anymore. One of the things that any good Drill Sergeant (and any good basic training program) will do is first tell you, and then prove to you, that you have some final reserves of energy that you can reach down inside and use when the chips are down. After that, you will collapse and need to sleep, but in the middle of a fight, not so much. So maybe the answer is: FAT never causes unconsciousness during an encounter, but afterwards you MUST rest and cannot continue until you do.
I can see platimus' point on sprains and the like as potential consequences, but I personally have never viewed physical damage in TFT/LAW as a pulled muscle (maybe that's a problem with my visualization) but rather something more serious. Besides, in the middle of a fight, you press on through all of that due to adrenalin -- heck, most of the time you don't even realize you were injured that way until afterwards. Sometimes you don't even realize you were wounded until afterwards (at least in my experience).
In the end, I guess platimus and I will just agree to disagree on this and play it our own ways, my insecurity notwithstanding.
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Post by nukesnipe on Apr 10, 2014 13:11:18 GMT -5
Two left?! Hoo-YAH! I got a raise!
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Post by mister frau blucher on Apr 10, 2014 15:54:57 GMT -5
All good points, and agreed for the most part. Our experience definitely influences how we tweak our games. George's time as a SEAL shows in the amount of coverage grappling gets in LAW in comparison to weapon attacks.
Keep in mind, though, that Fatigue is a little more than just falling asleep. You generally lose FT by a) casting spells, and b) getting punched/grappled. As you know from your military experience, when you punch somebody a lot, they don't fall asleep, they go unconcious. I think our term "Fatigue" might be the problem here - we use it very generally for a specific (ie non-lethal) damage to the body.
Such concepts as Weariness (like being awake a long time) are covered in individual adventures, and are a different concept than what we refer to here as Fatigue. Even casting spells is taking more out of your physicality than just being tired.
So we're not really saying that you take so much punishment from being punched/wrestled/casting spells that you suddenly fall asleep; instead that your body reaches a threshold that it simply shuts down, either from the strain of weilding supernatural forces, or the trauma of physical (generally non-lethal) damage - and you go unconcious. That is why it can combine with actual physical (sword/axe/spear/etc), or can shut the body down by itself. Sorry to take one part of your post and focus on that - as I said, I can see your viewpoint and respect it, and generally agree. The term Fatigue might be causing some differing opinions here, as we use it very broadly, moreso than its actual literal definition.
Anyway, hopefully this clears up what FT actually encompasses, as we use it in the game, rather than muddying waters further!
Bret
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Post by platimus on Apr 10, 2014 16:58:42 GMT -5
Bret, Thanks for the clarification on what Fatigue really encompasses. That is pretty much how I think of Fatigue although I might not have expressed it as eloquently.
Bret and anyone, I didn't create my custom Fatigue rules because I thought the official rules were totally unrealistic. I think the official Fatigue rules are quite accurate without being overly burdensome. The real fault lies with myself, people I play with, and most likely human beings as a whole. So many times a wizard will cast a spell or two, take some damage, dodge an attack, make an attack, then cast another spell. Then it comes to our attention that said wizard should have been incapacitated a few rounds earlier. I hate this. If we had been doing a better job with the book-keeping, this would not have happened. The wizard might have made different choices. I changed the rules for myself to make the book-keeping gaming-fatigue-proof.
jlv, I agree to disagree. I have enjoyed our discussions. I found your viewpoints very interesting. Please don't be offended if my viewpoints differ. When my viewpoint differs, I only remain silent when I've lost respect for the opposing viewpoints or their proponents. I'm cursed like that.
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Post by jlv61560 on Apr 10, 2014 23:56:55 GMT -5
Two thoughts here:
First, thanks Bret for the clarification. Based on that, I can see where both you and platimus are coming from. My apologies if I read too much into things. Perhaps it's at least partially because of the whole "endurance" thing from HOW, and me reading more into the similarities in the concept than into the differences. The bottom line here; I need to rethink how I was approaching the issue. I still like the exploding wizards staff though, dammit!
Second, platimus -- I really wasn't trying to be offensive, and obviously my poor command of the English language is at least partially at fault here. When I said I felt like you were getting hostile, I guess what I was really trying to say was that somehow I seemed to have gotten your dander up. It was not my intent to do so, trust me. Of course, they say the road to somewhere (Greyhawk, maybe?) is paved with "good intentions." Regardless, based on Bret's comments on what they actually meant FT to be, I have to honestly say that I now need to reconsider your comments and perhaps admit I was wr..., wro..., well, "hasty," in my judgement on this matter.... (How's that for an apology without actually bringing myself to admit I was wr..., wro..., oh, you know?)
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Post by platimus on Apr 11, 2014 0:26:24 GMT -5
jvl, I found your accusation of hostility to be more humorous than offensive. We're both wrong and we're both right depending on which ethereal absolute truth we're measured against. Obviously, we both like to expound on our 'brilliant thoughts' It's been fun!
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Post by klingor on May 23, 2014 16:19:50 GMT -5
Hi guys, I've just read this thread and I treat the points you raised as follows: An encounter includes all combat as well as any post-combat healing(both magical and skills/potions). It starts when the characters set up on the combat hex-grid and start moving as per combat turn sequencing. When it ends, the party moves back to the overland/dungeon map. It is considered to have taken 15 minutes and each character regains Fat 1 point. If the party remains stationary on the map, chars regains 1 Fat pt per 15 minutes uninterrupted rest ie no other activity and no random encounters are made.(In practice, I treat it as a 6-hour rest break and, if an encounter happens, roll d6 for how many hours in it happens, assuming 1 encounter roll per 6 hours.If checks are made more often, adjust fatigue recovery accordingly). Wounds - damage to the physical integrity of the body - recover at 1 point per 2 days. During an encounter, spells need renewed every 6 turns. Combat turns run strictly as per ITL as regards movement/facing/ZOCs on the hex grid(I was brought up on Avalon Hill/SPI board wargames) and options are exercised in order of decreasing adjDx but can be delayed. Success probabilities are as per LAW, so a Dex10 IQ14 MU will cast a spell when the turn counts down to 10 but rolls 14 or less to succeed. As regards ST vs Fat, I treat these differently between combat(on the hex grid) and adventure(on the overland/dungeon map grid). In combat, Fat = St remaining when combat sequencing starts modified by any residual fatigue from previous encounters. It is then reduced as combat progresses and this is what determines any minuses to success rolls. Only if Physical St is reduced to 0 or below es a character fall unconscious or die. (I've developed a system whereby a physical hit can be converted to a fatigue loss instead by a certain amount due to a parry or by having Warrior/Veteran). In this way, the stress of combat can be approximated to some extent. When combat is over and the hexgrid exited, this is when characters collapse of exhaustion and sleep until the total damage+residual fatigue are less than original St(once again, fatigue recovers at 1 pt per 15 min, Phys dam at 1 pt per 2 days). For die rolls, I roll 2 dice. One is a normal d6, the other is a d6 with the values 0,1,6,7,12,13 on the faces. The sum is quasi-linear range of 1-19: 1 & 19 occur approx 2.75% each, 2-18 approx 5.5% each. To tell whether an action is successful, calculate the to-succeed score using the appropriate characteristic (eg adjDex for a weapon attack) together with any bonuses/penalties and subtract the dice-roll. If the result is zero or greater, the action was successful. The advantages of this approach are twofold:(a) a bonus may be applied if the resultant figure reaches a certain level eg +1 damage if 4-7, +2 damage if 8-12 etc(v. useful for a highly skilled swordsman using a rapier)and (b)a contested check could be made by comparing the attacker's total against the defender's (eg a parry, where the parry may partially block an attack - both totals are >=0 but the attacker has a higher total - or completely block it - both totals =0 but the defender is higher. Indeed, the defender could even score a riposte if the attack fails while the parry succeeds - it all depends on how much the GM is willing to incorporate.)
Cheers Colin
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Post by platimus on May 23, 2014 23:36:00 GMT -5
Fascinating stuff, Colin. I really like the linear (close enough), 2-die method. Brilliant!
Edited Addition--- After analyzing the method a bit, I'm wondering why you chose those values (0,1,6,7,12,13). I understand the 0,6, and 12. It seems you chose the other values in order to get a maximum result of 19. I'm curious why you wanted 19 instead of 18 (0,0,6,6,12,12) or 20 (0,2,6,8,12,14). ---
I don't completely comprehend how you handle Fat in combat. I'll keep re-reading and maybe I'll figure it out. If you feel inclined to give some examples, I would appreciate it.
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Post by klingor on May 26, 2014 10:22:07 GMT -5
Thanks, Platimus, Now you point it out, I agree that 0,2,6,8,1,14 is a better choice than my original one. As for fatigue, I've developed a method whereby the prime chars of ST,Dex and IQ are used to generate secondary characteristics which represent their different facets. For example, from St I derive Constitution and Endurance. Con is the amount of physical damage a character can tolerate(Hit points). Endurance is a measure of how long he can exert himself before errors due to fatigue creep in. (I allow characters to increase the secondary chars independently of both each other and the primary characteristics, so that a character of St 12 who would normally have Con 12 and End 12, may actually have Con and/or End higher than this.) Once Combat starts, these are treated as independent variables. Cumulative physical damage only comes into play when it reduces Con to 0(unconsciousness) or less (death), although a character taking 5 hits in 1 attack suffers a -2 penalty next turn as per TFT. Characters may undertake extra defensive actions during a round, but these have an endurance cost and endurance can never be voluntarily reduced below 0, at which point the character can only perform his normal actions. For example, a character selects to attack an opponent as his normal action (normal actions always cost 0 endurance). He is attacked in turn by an opponent and elects to parry at a cost use an extra parry at a cost of 1 endurance point(extra actions cost 1 End each). The number of times he can use a skill is limited by his skill level(assuming he has enough endurance)so if he had Parry+3, he could use up to 3 extra parries per round.
It is only after combat, when the adrenaline has worn off, that the cumulative effects of wounds and Fatigue manifest themselves.
I also use Warrior and Veteran skills, requirements as per ITL. However, Warrior allows 1 extra defensive action at no endurance cost, Veteran allows 2 extra actions, either offensive or defensive. In addition a Warrior can convert 2+lvl pts of physical damage to End loss instead. A Veteran can convert 3+lvl dam pts to endurance, and can then use surplus points to cancel the End loss Eg Warrior+1 takes 3 hits - he takes these as 3 End points instead. Veteran+2 takes 3 hits - he converts these to 3 End pts and uses the remaining 2 pts to cancel 2 End pts thus the 3 damage pts are reduced to 1 End pt loss.
It seems horribly complex, but as characters will only slowly get good enough to use them, the mechanics become easier with practice.
Parry - Defender rolls as if he were attacking. If he succeeds, he rolls damage as if for an attack and this is used to convert dam to End and then cancel, as per Veteran 2-stage reduction.
Thanks
PS I think of the idea of Phys dam -> Fat loss -> No loss as the main driver for the above, which is simply the way I chose to implement it.
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Post by platimus on May 26, 2014 23:01:10 GMT -5
Happy to contribute in some small way. Thanks for sharing. Really interesting stuff.
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Post by mister frau blucher on May 29, 2014 21:20:48 GMT -5
Colin,
Good to hear from you again! ROW was wodering how you were!
I love that you have created your own advanced, masters level rules. This is great!
Bret
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Post by platimus on May 30, 2014 19:34:23 GMT -5
Colin, I'm not sure how you made your special 0-2-6-8-12-14 die but I came up with this method using run-of-the-mill pip die:
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Post by keesvanloomacklin on Jun 2, 2021 23:56:23 GMT -5
Here is the Critical Hit/Miss system that I use. Anytime a 1,1,1, is rolled in melee, it is double damage and the attacker gains a second free attack. Anytime three of the same number are rolled THAT RESULTS IN A SUCCESSFUL HIT, the damage is doubled. For Critical Misses, anytime three of the same number are rolled THAT RESULTS IN A MISS, a fumble occurs. Roll a subsequent d6: 1-2 = Weapon dropped in the space, 3-4 = Weapon is knocked d6 spaces away in a random direction, 5= A non magical weapon breaks, 6= Hero possibly hurt themselves. Roll 3/DX to see if they successfully hit their self and apply weapon damage minus armor.
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