Grappling and Evolution

[platimus]

The rules for Grappling have evolved from 2012 to 2015. I think I like where it's headed. Below, I will list the grappling/takedown rules that have changed from 2012 to 2015. After which, I will offer my own humble suggestions.

pulling from 2012
ACTIONS
Takedown (Entering A Defender's Space)
An attacker takes down a defender by entering his space. The defender may counterattack first, doing an extra D6 damage if he hits (see Reaction). If he does not counterattack, the defender may defend the takedown (see Reaction), or save his turn for later.

GRAPPLING ACTIONS
Grappling Attack
Grapplers can only attack each other, and only after the takedown turn. The grappler winning ST hits his foe, even if it is his foe who is attacking. Additional grapplers hit automatically. Unarmed grappling attacks negate armor. Additional grapplers hit automatically. Unarmed grappling attacks negate armor.

Escape From Grappling
A grappling character escapes into any empty adjacent space by winning ST. If he fails, he remains grappled. A character with twice or more the ST of his opponent may freely exit the grappling space and move and act normally.

REACTIONS
Defending a Takedown
The attacker must win DX, or the defender can retreat away, into any empty adjacent space. A stronger defender can instead force the attacker back into his entering space.


pulling from 2015
ACTIONS
Takedown (Entering A Defender's Space)
An attacker enters a defender space by winning his choice of ST or DX. If he fails but is stronger, he still enters the space, and the defender must retreat to an adjacent unoccupied space, or be grappled. If the defender has not yet moved, he may counterattack first, doing an extra die of damage if he hits. A takedown may be used as a reaction.

GRAPPLING ACTIONS
Grappling
Grapplers can only attack each other. The grappler winning ST can either hit his foe and roll for damage, or exit the space into any adjacent, unoccupied space. Additional grapplers hit automatically. Unarmed grappling attacks negate armor.

REACTIONS
(Defending a Takedown is gone)


pulling from 2015 and his butt , Platimus steps into the training arena prepared to teach or be taught

...replacing Takedown
Engage (Entering A Defender's Space)
An attacker engages a defender by entering his space.

...replacing GRAPPLING ACTIONS
ENGAGED ACTIONS
...replacing Grappling and adding Escape back in
Engaged Attacks
An engaged attacker can only attack others within his space. The engaged attacker hits a foe by winning ST or DX. Unarmed, engaged attacks negate armor. An engaged defender cannot perform reactions.

Disengage
An engaged attacker may eject one foe from his space into an empty, adjacent space by winning ST or he may move himself into an empty, adjacent space by winning ST or DX.

REACTIONS
(merge Counterattack into Zone of Control and rename to Opportunity Attack)
Opportunity Attack
A defender may attack or engage a foe residing or moving through an adjacent space. If the foe intended to engage the defender, the defender adds an extra die to his damage if he attacks and hits.

from the weapon's table
(G) Only G weapons can be used while engaged.

[platimus]

NOTE: I certainly understand a reluctance to consider what I've done with Takedown and Grappling. However, I see no reason why Counterattack and Zone of Control haven't been merged already. Counterattack basically says you can attack someone in an adjacent space if they attacked you. Zone of Control basically says you can attack someone in an adjacent space if they haven't attacked you. Basically, you can attack someone in an adjacent space as a reaction.

[platimus]

No discussion for combining Counterattack and Zone of Control into Opportunity Attack, eh? I must have really nailed it!

[platimus]

...replacing Takedown
Engage (Entering A Defender's Space)
An attacker engages a defender by entering his space.

...replacing GRAPPLING ACTIONS
ENGAGED ACTIONS
...replacing Grappling and adding Escape back in
Engaged Attacks
An engaged attacker can only attack others within his space. The engaged attacker hits a foe by winning ST or DX. Unarmed, engaged attacks negate armor. An engaged defender cannot perform reactions.

Disengage
An engaged attacker may eject one foe from his space into an empty, adjacent space by winning ST or he may move himself into an empty, adjacent space by winning ST or DX.

i decided i didn't like that, so...

...replacing Takedown
Engage (Entering A Defender's Space)
An attacker engages a defender by entering his space.

...replacing GRAPPLING ACTIONS
ENGAGED ACTIONS
...replacing Grappling Actions
An engaged character can only attack others within his space. An engaged character that wins ST may roll damage against his opponent or eject the opponent into an empty, adjacent space. An engaged character that wins DX may roll damage against his opponent or move himself into an empty, adjacent space. Unarmed, engaged attacks negate armor. An engaged defender cannot perform reactions.

[Lord Inar]

Hi all,

after a long hiatus, we got around to playing some over the weekend and there were lots of worms (so lots of grappling).

Here's a few questions we had:

1) If I start my turn adjacent to somebody and then move away can they use their reaction to grapple (i.e. move in to my space)?
2) If the grapple is successful is my turn now done (I can't move and I can't react because I've already moved)?
3) Is the the grappler's future turn also already over because they used their reaction to engage me?
4) While you are grappling, only you or your opponent can perform an action. If I succeed and chhose to attack, do I still need to roll to hit?
5) How is multiple grappling supposed to work (e.g. only one of three gets to act?)

We decided to streamline rules (and to address something that isn't addressed currently as well as far as we remember)
You engage in grappling in the same way as the rules.
On your turn you can
1) choose to strike (roll attack normally), but you can only strike the person with whom you are grappling.
2) Make a ST roll (maybe choice of ST or DX) opposed by ST or DX to successfully break away to adjacent hex
3) Make a ST roll opposed by ST or DX to successfully drag and opponent two hexes (one if it is larger)

Attacking into... rule
Firing into melee and attacking into a grapple follow the same rule.
In our case the rule is that if you miss you hit the other person.

[platimus]

This is cool. You've made me think of some problems with "my way" and perhaps the "official way". I'll have to rethink the escaping stuff.

Not sure what the official word will be but I will share my thoughts. First, my conception of the grappling is that once it starts, you wouldn't "roll attack normally". If you want to attack your grappled foe, you must win ST. Unofficially, I like the idea of allowing both the attacker and the defender to choose which attribute (ST or DX) they will use in their contests.

Example: Character A and Character B are grappled. It is Character A's turn. He wants to hit/attack B. A chooses to use DX because it is higher than his ST. B chooses to use his ST because it is higher than his DX. Using the official "winning" method, A tries to roll under his DX. B tries to roll under his ST. If A's roll is higher than B's, he hits B and rolls for damage according to his weapon (armed or unarmed). Otherwise, B hits A and rolls for damage (even though it wasn't his turn).

The above words are aimed at Q4 and your streamlined #1 above.

Q 1&2: I would allow the grapple. You wouldn't be able to react because it was your turn. You would still reside in the same space you were in at the beginning of your turn. Your grappled character's turn would be over.

Q 3: Yes, they reacted so they forfeited their next turn. The result is that your Fleeing? character gets the opportunity to do something before the aggressor (that started the grapple) can actually do anything. If you win (ST or DX) and elect to escape, I would allow you to move your normal MA. I'm aware that my OP doesn't allow this nor do the official rules, I think.

Q 4: No. See above.

Q 5 (& streamlined #3): This has always been murky to me - especially because of the "Additional grapplers hit automatically" is all that is said about it. Once you have 3 or more folks in the same 5-foot space, I just let them roll for damage (no need for to-hit roll). How many beings can you squeeze into a 5-foot space? Depends on the size of the beings. If they're all human-sized, I limit to 4. Four humans or 3 humans and two halflings. Two humans and 4 dogs. Etc.

Dragging and Escaping: This is one of the reasons why I prefer my 2d6+Attribute vs 2d6+Attribute method of "winning". Let's say A, B, and C are grappled. It is A's turn and he wants to drag B and C. Let's say C is cooperative. A rolls 2d6 and adds his ST and C's ST. The result is compared to B's 2d6+ST. If A's result was higher than B's, then A, B, and C move to an empty, adjacent space. On C's turn, if he elects to drag, same procedure if A wants to cooperate. If A wanted to eject B, C could still cooperate. On B's turn, he wants to escape. He rolls 2d6 and adds his ST. If A and C are cooperating, they roll 2d6 and add both of their ST. If no one is cooperating (perhaps, all 3 grapplers are enemies?), the first grappler that wants to escape on his turn may do so without rolling.

[platimus]

Take Three...

Engage (replaces Takedown)
An attacker engages a defender by entering his space. The defender may react before the attacker enters his space.

Grappling (replaces Grappling)
Grapplers may not perform reactions and can only attack others in their space. Three or more grapplers hit automatically. Unarmed grappling attacks ignore armor. The grappler winning ST can hit his foe or eject the foe into an empty, adjacent space. After ejecting his foe, the grappler may move up to his MA before ending his turn. The ejected foe cannot react until after his next turn. The grappler winning DX can hit his foe or exit the grapple and move up to his MA before ending his turn. The escapee's foe cannot react until after his next turn.

Opportunity Attack (replaces Counterattack and Zone of Control)
A defender may strike, shoot, or engage a foe in an adjacent space. The defender hits by passing 3/DX. If the foe was engaging the defender, the defender rolls an extra D6 of damage.

[platimus]

Nov 7, 2016 17:58:09 GMT -5 Lord Inar said:

You engage in grappling in the same way as the rules.
On your turn you can
1) choose to strike (roll attack normally), but you can only strike the person with whom you are grappling.
2) Make a ST roll (maybe choice of ST or DX) opposed by ST or DX to successfully break away to adjacent hex
3) Make a ST roll opposed by ST or DX to successfully drag and opponent two hexes (one if it is larger)

Attacking into... rule
Firing into melee and attacking into a grapple follow the same rule.
In our case the rule is that if you miss you hit the other person.

Presenting the rules in this fashion is more easily digested but my preferences differ on some minor points

You engage in grappling according to the 2012 rules. You simply move into another's space. No contest.
On your turn you can
1) choose to strike (win ST or DX), but you can only strike a person with whom you are grappling.
2) Win ST or DX to successfully break away and move up to your MA before ending your turn.
3) Win ST to successfully drag an opponent into an empty, adjacent space.
4) Win ST to successfully eject an opponent into an empty, adjacent space and move up to your MA before ending your turn.

Attacking into... rule
Firing into melee and attacking into a grapple follow the same rule.
In our case the rule is that if you miss you hit the other person.

I like the simplicity of the bold statement. It works most of the time. What happens when attacking into a space with more than 2 grapplers? I think I've seen a ruling somewhere (concerning firing) that states: If you miss the intended target, roll to hit the next target (even if it's your buddy). So...
If you miss your intended target, roll to hit each grappler in the space until you hit one of them or miss all of them.

[platimus]

After further review I've decided that I will stick to the current, official rules regarding takedowns, grappling, counterattacks, and zone of control - with one minor caveat: while grappled, one may hit a foe or escape by winning ST or DX.
Nevermind I'm sticking to my "Take Three..." above.

[Lord Inar]

Nov 12, 2016 12:43:18 GMT -5 platimus said:

Nov 7, 2016 17:58:09 GMT -5 Lord Inar said:

You engage in grappling in the same way as the rules.
On your turn you can
1) choose to strike (roll attack normally), but you can only strike the person with whom you are grappling.
2) Make a ST roll (maybe choice of ST or DX) opposed by ST or DX to successfully break away to adjacent hex
3) Make a ST roll opposed by ST or DX to successfully drag and opponent two hexes (one if it is larger)

Attacking into... rule
Firing into melee and attacking into a grapple follow the same rule.
In our case the rule is that if you miss you hit the other person.

Presenting the rules in this fashion is more easily digested but my preferences differ on some minor points

You engage in grappling according to the 2012 rules. You simply move into another's space. No contest.
On your turn you can
1) choose to strike (win ST or DX), but you can only strike a person with whom you are grappling.
2) Win ST or DX to successfully break away and move up to your MA before ending your turn.
3) Win ST to successfully drag an opponent into an empty, adjacent space.
4) Win ST to successfully eject an opponent into an empty, adjacent space and move up to your MA before ending your turn.

Attacking into... rule
Firing into melee and attacking into a grapple follow the same rule.
In our case the rule is that if you miss you hit the other person.

I like the simplicity of the bold statement. It works most of the time. What happens when attacking into a space with more than 2 grapplers? I think I've seen a ruling somewhere (concerning firing) that states: If you miss the intended target, roll to hit the next target (even if it's your buddy). So...
If you miss your intended target, roll to hit each grappler in the space until you hit one of them or miss all of them.

I think I mostly agree with your changes, although I think I'd still like to provide a benefit to dragging, maybe something like being able to drag a grappled opponent an additional hex for every two hexes bigger the grappler is.
Also, I think 2 and 4 should probably be 1/2 MA, but I might be thinking of it wrong (action+partial movement)

[platimus]

Nov 21, 2016 19:07:03 GMT -5 Lord Inar said:

Nov 12, 2016 12:43:18 GMT -5 platimus said:

Presenting the rules in this fashion is more easily digested but my preferences differ on some minor points

You engage in grappling according to the 2012 rules. You simply move into another's space. No contest.
On your turn you can
1) choose to strike (win ST or DX), but you can only strike a person with whom you are grappling.
2) Win ST or DX to successfully break away and move up to your MA before ending your turn.
3) Win ST to successfully drag an opponent into an empty, adjacent space.
4) Win ST to successfully eject an opponent into an empty, adjacent space and move up to your MA before ending your turn.

Attacking into... rule
Firing into melee and attacking into a grapple follow the same rule.
In our case the rule is that if you miss you hit the other person.

I like the simplicity of the bold statement. It works most of the time. What happens when attacking into a space with more than 2 grapplers? I think I've seen a ruling somewhere (concerning firing) that states: If you miss the intended target, roll to hit the next target (even if it's your buddy). So...
If you miss your intended target, roll to hit each grappler in the space until you hit one of them or miss all of them.

I think I mostly agree with your changes, although I think I'd still like to provide a benefit to dragging, maybe something like being able to drag a grappled opponent an additional hex for every two hexes bigger the grappler is.
Also, I think 2 and 4 should probably be 1/2 MA, but I might be thinking of it wrong (action+partial movement)

I'm fairly rigid on the dragging. Remember: A grappler with 10+? higher ST (don't have official rules handy) can move as normal and carry his lower ST foe with him. I would think that rule would catch most of the "hexes bigger" situations. Also, dragging only one hex per turn gives the lower ST guy (in a more even ST match) more chances to avoid being dragged to the edge of a chasm or lava pit and being "ejected" into it. Dragging 2 hexes by default wouldn't be obscene though. Any more than that involving 2 foes of similar size/ST begins to chafe at my suspension of disbelief

If you only knew how much inner struggle I had about 1/2 MA vs whole MA after escaping. At first 1/2 MA did seem more appropriate to me. However, I wanted the "escape" to feel like an actual escape. Moving your whole MA makes it just a tad harder for your "grappling ex" to catch up to you and continue harassing you with grapples. Also, not having to divide MAs by 2 is a tad easier/quicker. There really wasn't a big difference when I simulated 1/2 MA vs whole MA, so I sided with simplicity.

In the end, on either point, I could play your way...without too much grumbling

[platimus]

Maybe I've got it backwards. Maybe I'm more rigid about the MA and escaping. If you and I were actually collaborating on a published rules-set, I would offer a 2-hex compromise on the dragging but stand firm on the MA/escape. The last sentence of my last post still applies though

[platimus]

Another stab at Takedown and Grappling...

Takedown
A character performs a takedown by entering his foe's space.

Grappling
A grappler with 2x ST of his foe moves and acts normally, carrying his foe. Otherwise, a grappler must win ST to drag his foe one space. To eject his foe into an adjacent empty space, a grappler must win ST. To hit his foe or exit the grapple into an adjacent empty space, a grappler must win ST or DX . Upon exiting a grapple or ejecting his foe, a character may move and act as if his turn just began and his foe is considered prone.