Two weapon attacks

[mister frau blucher]

Here is the rule I have been using for a while, which seems to work well.

If you attack with two weapons, each attack is at 4/DX rather than 3/DX. Weapon skill, if used for "to hit" rather than damage, affects each roll.

ST12 and above weapons lower your DX by one for each such weapon (ie, a DX13 character wielding a broadsword with one hand has an effective DX of 12 for both attacks); using a broadsword with both hands reduces it another one point (if the above character were wielding a broadsword in each hand it would be DX11).

Conversely, light weapons are easier to wield in this fashion. Wielding a dagger in each hand raises the DX by one for each strike (ie, our intrepid warrior above would see his DX go from 13 to 14 if he is fighting with two daggers; but if he has a mace and a dagger, he is still 13. If he has a broadsword and a dagger, he is still reduced one to 12 for each strike).

There is still some fine tuning - like should the broadsword penalty apply only to that hand? Should hatchets get the dagger bonus as well? - but this has worked when I have had a dual-weapon weilding character.

[klingor]

Bret,
Like the idea of 4/DX for two-weapon attacks.
What about two-weapon use however, cf Main-gauche in TFT where it is used primarily as a shield substitute but not as an offensive weapon.
What about a new combat option for two-weapon users - Deflect and Riposte.
If the defender using D&R makes his 4/DX roll to absorb damage (ie act as shield) he then gets a 4/DX roll to inflict damage with that weapon. Any undeflected/unabsorbed damage would still be applied to the defender, but he has had the chance to make an offensive action, while choosing a primarily defensive option.
It's all about choice.
All the best.
Colin

[mister frau blucher]

Hey, Colin,

That is an interesting option. So his main hand would attack as normally (4/DX) while the other hand makes a 4/DX to act as a shield, and then a further 4/DX roll to attack? If I understand this, then there is no downside to trying to deflect - it is essentially a free action, since the second hand was already going to attack at 4/DX.

Or did you mean that if the 4/DX deflection is successful, he then gets the second attack? If unsuccessful, he is unable to get the second attack?

I'll play around with this. In our online game at the bottom of this forum, one of the players fights with two tomahawks, and we have brainstormed a couple of more options as well.

Thanks, Colin!

Bret

[klingor]

Thanks Bret,
My idea is that you only get the second attack if you succeeded with the deflection (aka parry).
In addition, the D&R only applies to one opponent - you can only apply the deflection against one attacker and the second attack against that opponent.
My interpretation of the current situation is that the options carried are either
1) Weapon + shield - Weapon hits on 3/DX, Shield automatically protects against attacks.
2) Weapon + weapon - each weapon rolls 4/DX to hit. No protection against attacks.
I envisaged the D&R as a halfway-house between the two. You give up the 3/DX attack and the automatic protection. You gain the chance for 2 attacks at 4/DX and protection on 4/DX.
Making the second attack contingent upon a successful deflection/parry should stop the win/win situation you highlighted. It was to give players the extra option that I came up with it. Hopefully I've built in enough limits so that it doesn't become an automatic selection for low-level characters, but rather an option for higher-level combat-oriented individuals.
Cheers
Colin

[Deleted]

here are some ideas i've had concerning Parry and Extra Attacks. take with grain of salt.

Parry - Reaction; loose next turn; can only be performed when you are 'hit' (sort of like Dodge, but opponent goes ahead and rolls his damage after you declare 'Parry'); roll 3/DX. if successful, roll damage. subtract your damage from the opponents damage before applying his damage to yourself. if your damage was higher, subtract opponent's damage from your damage and apply the remainder to the opponent. if by odd chance they are equal, the damages simply cancel out. (i guess this is really a cross between Dodge and Counterattack)

Extra Attack - must have some skill level with weapon (both if dual-wielding and the weapons are different); with one weapon, # of additional attacks cannot exceed skill level with that weapon; in dual-wielding, no more than 2 attacks; skill levels are not applied to attacks (you;re using your skill levels to make extra attacks instead); 4/DX to-hit for extra attacks OR cost 1F for each extra attack. if i were the gamemaster, to save myself some headache and discourage over-use, i would let the extra attack succeed on 3/DX but cost 1F. EDIT: my reasoning for this is that i see extra attacks (which includes dual-wielding) as a nice option to players in tough battles that they 'almost' won...if they had just had one more swing.

EDIT2: also wanted to add (concerning dual-wielding)...
let's say Biff holds a broadsword in one hand and a dagger in the other hand. let's say Biff has a +1 Sword skill and a +2 Dagger skill. let's say Biff's DX is 13.
let's say Biff rolls 15 to-hit (3/DX). this would be a hit if he is attacking with the dagger (15 - 2 = 13) but a miss with the broadsword (15 - 1 = 14). as GM, i would let the player decide after the to-hit roll which hand he was attacking with...in an effort to minimize the amount (and attraction) of 'extra attacking' due to 'dual-wielding'. i might perhaps use this rule INSTEAD of previous ideas with this slight modification: you can decide which hand you're attacking with after the to-hit roll OR roll to-hit for each hand. the first hand to succeed is the one and only attack you get. if Biff's to-hit with broadsword misses, he can roll to-hit again for dagger. If he hits with dagger, proceed as normal. If he misses, proceed as normal. If his first, broadsword to-hit succeeds, then roll damage for broadsword and do not attack with dagger. Basically, the dual-wield attack consists of 1 or 2 to-hit 'tries' but only the first successful to-hit will yield any damage.

[Deleted]

ok, i'm revising my Extra Attack and Dual-Wield ideas and re-summarizing below:

Extra Attack - must have some skill level with wielded weapon; skill level bonus is not applied to the extra attacks; cannot be done if dual-wielding or using a shield; # of additional attacks cannot exceed skill level with wielded weapon; each extra attack costs 2F; use 4/DX to-hit on extra attacks.

Dual-Wielding - DX must be >= weapon1 heft + weapon2 heft; must have some skill level with both weapons; skill level bonus is not applied when dual-wielding; roll 3/DX to-hit for each hand/weapon. the first successful to-hit is the one and only attack you get. roll damage according to the hand/weapon that succeeded.

[Deleted]

ok, i just can't stop LOL...

Extra Attack - ST + DX must be >= weapon heft x 2; must have skill level 2 with weapon; skill level is not applied to the extra attack; extra attack costs 2F; only 1 extra attack allowed per turn.

Dual-Wield - ST + DX must be >= weapon1 heft + weapon2 heft; must have skill level 2 with weapon in each hand; skill levels are not applied to attacks; 3/DX to-hit per hand/weapon; the first successful to-hit is the one and only attack you get. roll damage according to the hand/weapon that succeeded.
Reasoning
- ST + DX >= weapon1 heft + weapon2 heft
= you need enough strength and dexterity to wield 2 large (hefty) objects. this helps make dual-dagger at low levels commonly attainable but larger weapons less common.
- skill level 2
= you need to be very proficient with each weapon before you can wield 2 weapons simultaneously. this ability should not be common among low-level characters. must learn to do this during the course of the character's life. this also makes dual-daggers at low levels commonly attainable but larger weapons less common.
- skill level not applied
= you shouldn't be as good dual-wielding as you are single-wielding
- 3/DX to-hit with each hand/weapon
= loss of hard-earned skill level bonus above combined with only one weapon doing damage is penalty enough
- only the first hand/weapon to succeed at to-hit will do damage
= you're getting 2 chances to-hit. combat-wise and game-mechanic wise, this rule combined with the loss of skill level bonus almost negates the advantage of dual-wielding. that is intentional. dual-wielding should be a hard-earned skill that has more to do with role-playing than being WAY deadlier than traditional weapon mastering, IMO. for a character with high DX, which seems very likely given the requirements, simply getting 2 chances to hit would be a good enough advantage, IMO. otherwise, just about every character/player will be trying to dual-wield and i don't think it should be that common (unless there is a dagger in one hand). there is also an advantage concerning Parry (see below).

[Deleted]

reconciling Parry with Dual-Wield...

rules for Parry stand. you still lose your next turn. however, as a dual-wielder, you get 2 attempts to make your 3/DX 'to-hit' roll (Parry roll) but you don't get to add weapon skill level (because you are dual-wielding). the first successful roll is the one you use. if both fail, your Parry failed.