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Post by mister frau blucher on Sept 2, 2015 10:12:17 GMT -5
Hey all,
Ok, at some point in th near future, we are going to be selling pdfs.
I have no idea where to begin. Both George and I are hard copy guys. But this is kinda the 21st Century, and many if not most gamers use pdfs, and as some of our customers have pointed out, we are definitely losing sales by not doing this.
So a few questions for those with experience in the pdf department:
Is anyone aware of a pdf-creating-and-selling-for-dummies website/webpage that is fairly comprehensive that we could look at to understand the basic requirements?
Do you usually buy pdfs at at a central site, or several? I think drivethrurpg and OneBookShelf are the same thing, and is the largest, but other companies like Paizo sell them to, I believe.
Is there a virtue to selling through these vendors, rather than selling it off of our own website? I know exposure is much better with these vendors - but is there another advantage I am missing?
Are there features to pdfs that you especially like or hate to see?
Anyone who has gotten some of the Print on Demand stuff - have you gotten anything POD that has maps and counters like our games do? Was the quality good?
Thanks to everyone who gives us some feedback on this - we really need it!
Bret
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Post by nukesnipe on Sept 3, 2015 9:09:14 GMT -5
Bret,
I'm pretty much a POD junkie. I get pretty much all my pdfs off of OneBookShelf, which includes DriveThruRPG, Wargame Vault and RPGNow.
Some random observations in no particular order:
1. Most of the rules/booklets I've purchased are formatted for letter or A4 paper. I like that as it allows me to use my comb binder without having to modify (cut) the combs. I also have a long-arm stapler, so I have the abilty to staple bind booklets the size of DCG's, but you really can't expect everyone to have one.
2. If you are going to provide a color-intensive document, you might want to consider including printer-friendly files as well. Some publishers provide both color and greyscale files in their downloads.
3. Make sure the counters you provide are easily cut with a knife or scissors. Trying to cut out circular tokens or complicated, intricate shapes is extremely annoying and has led to my avoiding some publishers as not being worth the effort.
4. I print maps on 110# cardstock. Many of the games I've purchased include maps or map tiles. Given the size of the DCG maps, you're probably looking at a two-piece map, which is not uncommon. Some of the Heroic Maps Giant maps are 25 sheets, if not more. Some publishers include poster-sized jpgs of their maps so folks can run down to the copy/photo center to print them out nice a pretty. Other include virtual table top files, whatever those are. I think they support people using their tablets to play, or perhaps vassel modules.
5. You'd be shifting a bunch of your production cost to the consumer, so the current price of your products might need to be adjusted. In all honesty, I wouldn't pay ~$13 for a pdf download of a game as small as one of the DCG games. Avalon Game Company makes games of comparable size (but considerably lesser quality) than DGC. They might be a place to look for price ideas. They're also the makers of the annoying counters I mentioned above....
6. If you're going to have the customer cut out a lot of counters/tiles/etc, cram as much stuff on a page as you can to reduce post-purchase customer cost. It is really annoying to burn a sheet of cardstock in order to cut out a single 2"x2" map tile. Especially when you need ten of the stupid things...
7. Make sure your descriptions on DriveThruRPG are descriptive of the product. You'd be surprised how often a product description isn't very descriptive and the customer winds up basically making a blind purchase. No problem for a $2 product, but really aggravating for a $10 product.
8. Quality-wise, all you can control is the artwork, typeset and formatting of your product. The quality of the actual printed product is up to the consumer. Some will only print counters and maps and use their tablet/laptop to reference the rules, while others will print everything in the highest quality possible. I'd recommend giving the customer options with high/lo res artwork and color/greyscale artwork. I'm mildly OCD (have to be to paint 15mm), so I tend to print the book covers in high quality on glossy paper and the interior pages on plain paper with my printer set to high quality. Others might not be able to afford the ink and would prefer a nice greyscale option. I guess I'm trying to say is "forcing" a customer to spend $20 to print a $5 pdf might deter folks from additional purchases. If my total cost (purchase + printing) is going to be more than the $15 I currently spend on a DCG (product + shipping), there's no benefit for me to purchase the pdf. On the other hand, the pdf is nearly pure profit for the publisher.
That's about all I can think of off the top of my head.
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Post by darkpumpkin on Sept 3, 2015 23:12:30 GMT -5
OneBookShelf is the big dog. There are other stores, but I'd be pretty comfortable just starting out with OBS. (I believe they offer publishers a better commission rate if the product is exclusively available from them, too.)
Make sure you use the full-size preview functionality when you set up the product. I've seen some publishers omit it, and I'm sure they lose lots of sales, and I've seen it go wrong also when the whole product is unwittingly made available through the free preview.
Don't forget the ability to make product bundles, e.g. all the SF modules could be bundled for a discount.
Please make sure that the covers are included, as well as (of course) the counters. It needs to be set up to be easily printable, in two files, the booklet and the counters.
There will be all sorts of technical PDF issues like colors and layers etc which could make the process a little annoying. I can't really speak to that, but I guess it will get a lot easier after you've done the first one or two.
This will definitely be worth some promotion on various forums like RPG net. DCG is somewhat known around there, but this will help spread the word. Non-hardcore people will definitely be willing to pay a few dollars to check out a module in PDF.
Pricing is something I can't speak to, except that to me $5-$10 would seem about right for a module. I suspect that the lower end of that might seem fair for a product this size, to a lot of PDF buyers.
Look forward to buying them all.
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Post by platimus on Sept 7, 2015 23:17:29 GMT -5
I pretty much agree with all that has been said here - from a consumer stand-point. I would prefer that the PDFs are formatted for printing on letter-sized pages - no booklet format - for basically the same reason as nukesnipe. I don't have or use a comb binder. I use 3-ring binders or those cheap, floppy folder-binders. I would also prefer a lower price-point ($5-$10) for PDF only. I'm wondering if I could buy a hard-copy and tack-on the PDF too for just $5 dollars or less?
I would think the main advantage of using a third-party vendor (for DCG) would be some sort of tracking information embedded into the PDF - in case it winds up being 'shared' on the interwebs. Of course, that is easily by-passed. Ultimately, it comes down to loyalty and how much someone appreciates your product.
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Post by platimus on Sept 8, 2015 17:58:14 GMT -5
Additional Comments: It sounds as if nukesnipe tries to print and bind pdfs to professional quality. Nothing wrong with that but I have no interest in it. If I wanted professional printing and binding, I would buy the hard-copy. PDFs appeal to me because: I can print for real-world, wear-and-tear use - multiple times. I can easily backup a PDF to another drive. The artwork on the cover of some of the games are superb and nice to look at from time to time. However, the covers are non-essential for me. I would think printing the files to a virtual PDF printer (like the Adobe PDF printer) at 150dpi would good enough for me. I'm very curious if nukesnipe or I represent a majority in the PDF use case.
Edit: I forgot to mention that it would be really handy if the instructions to proceed to another, numbered paragraph were clickable/tapable links to that numbered paragraph.
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Post by nukesnipe on Sept 9, 2015 7:30:57 GMT -5
I did mention I'm mildly OCD....
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Post by platimus on Sept 9, 2015 13:04:04 GMT -5
I did mention I'm mildly OCD.... I think we all are in our own ways... The only reason I'm not OCD is that I'm not very good at it! The compulsions are there but nothing I do meets my own OCD standards.
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Post by mister frau blucher on Sept 10, 2015 16:26:19 GMT -5
Hey guys, thanks for all this feedback. We'll use this information as we figure out how to make it work.
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Post by mister frau blucher on Sept 10, 2015 20:40:36 GMT -5
Scott, I hope you don't mind me asking a few questions. Please understand that my tone is inquisitive and genuine - on the web it sometimes is hard to tell: 1. Most of the rules/booklets I've purchased are formatted for letter or A4 paper. I like that as it allows me to use my comb binder without having to modify (cut) the combs. I also have a long-arm stapler, so I have the abilty to staple bind booklets the size of DCG's, but you really can't expect everyone to have one. I am 99% sure George knows the answer here, but is A4 the size we normally use for paper? And, if you did not have a longarm, how would you bind the booklet? Should it have an alternative format? 2. If you are going to provide a color-intensive document, you might want to consider including printer-friendly files as well. Some publishers provide both color and greyscale files in their downloads. Do you mean actual separate files here, one color and one greyscale? There is not an option in the printing process to make a color cover into b/w/greyscale? 4. I print maps on 110# cardstock. Many of the games I've purchased include maps or map tiles. Given the size of the DCG maps, you're probably looking at a two-piece map, which is not uncommon. Some of the Heroic Maps Giant maps are 25 sheets, if not more. Some publishers include poster-sized jpgs of their maps so folks can run down to the copy/photo center to print them out nice a pretty. Other include virtual table top files, whatever those are. I think they support people using their tablets to play, or perhaps vassel modules. The poster-sized jpegs - couldn't you just blow up a map when printing it out? Or is that purely pixel size? Am I misunderstanding you here? One potential advantage of the pdf's, which would bum me out a bit since I am a hardcopy guy, is that we could include two or three maps instead of one. 5. You'd be shifting a bunch of your production cost to the consumer, so the current price of your products might need to be adjusted. In all honesty, I wouldn't pay ~$13 for a pdf download of a game as small as one of the DCG games. Avalon Game Company makes games of comparable size (but considerably lesser quality) than DGC. They might be a place to look for price ideas. They're also the makers of the annoying counters I mentioned above.... You are right in that a lot of the cost is shifted; it would be ridiculous to charge the same price pdf as printed. On a few other posts here, a 5-10 dollar price point has been cited. Is $10 too much for 36 pages, one tactical map and one small countersheet? Looking at drivethru, tht seems to be a proper range. One advatage here is we could make it a full countersheet. The countersheet is the most expensive part of our games, as small as it is, but if we did it digitally we could include more of them, I think... So if 10 bucks is too much for the above, how about for 36 pages, 3 tactical maps, and a full countersheet? 8. Quality-wise, all you can control is the artwork, typeset and formatting of your product. The quality of the actual printed product is up to the consumer. Some will only print counters and maps and use their tablet/laptop to reference the rules, while others will print everything in the highest quality possible. I'd recommend giving the customer options with high/lo res artwork and color/greyscale artwork. I'm mildly OCD (have to be to paint 15mm), so I tend to print the book covers in high quality on glossy paper and the interior pages on plain paper with my printer set to high quality. Others might not be able to afford the ink and would prefer a nice greyscale option. I guess I'm trying to say is "forcing" a customer to spend $20 to print a $5 pdf might deter folks from additional purchases. If my total cost (purchase + printing) is going to be more than the $15 I currently spend on a DCG (product + shipping), there's no benefit for me to purchase the pdf. On the other hand, the pdf is nearly pure profit for the publisher. I think this is a good basic philosophy for going forward. As always, Scott, thanks for your thoughts - it means a lot. Bret
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Post by mister frau blucher on Sept 10, 2015 20:57:07 GMT -5
Darkpumpkin, As with nukesnipe above, just want to elaborate on some of your points, if you don't mind! OneBookShelf is the big dog. There are other stores, but I'd be pretty comfortable just starting out with OBS. (I believe they offer publishers a better commission rate if the product is exclusively available from them, too.) Make sure you use the full-size preview functionality when you set up the product. I've seen some publishers omit it, and I'm sure they lose lots of sales, and I've seen it go wrong also when the whole product is unwittingly made available through the free preview. Do you have a feel how much should be previewable? 10% (3-4 pages of our average module)? Edit: Would 3-4 pages of one of our modules actually convey information? As everything is broken up into non-linear paragraphs, would the average buyer understand? Is there a different format of a preview we should consider? Don't forget the ability to make product bundles, e.g. all the SF modules could be bundled for a discount. That is a great idea. For our fantasy line, the largest, that might be too large for a bundle? Do you have a feel for the size of the bundle (3-6 games?) and the expected discount (15%?)? Please make sure that the covers are included, as well as (of course) the counters. It needs to be set up to be easily printable, in two files, the booklet and the counters. Would it actually be three files, including the tactical map? If we went with a greyscale option for the rules booklet, would that actually be 4 different files? If it is a two-page map, is that still one file or two? (Sorry to ask these basic questions multiple times, but the more I ask, the better chance I can understand what the hell is going on.) (Actually, who am I kidding? I'll never understand what's going on....) There will be all sorts of technical PDF issues like colors and layers etc which could make the process a little annoying. I can't really speak to that, but I guess it will get a lot easier after you've done the first one or two. Layers - that is something I have seen referenced...seems important... This will definitely be worth some promotion on various forums like RPG net. DCG is somewhat known around there, but this will help spread the word. Non-hardcore people will definitely be willing to pay a few dollars to check out a module in PDF. Pricing is something I can't speak to, except that to me $5-$10 would seem about right for a module. I suspect that the lower end of that might seem fair for a product this size, to a lot of PDF buyers. Do you feel $10 is too much for 36 pages, 3 tactucal maps, and a full 8.5 by 11 inch page of counters? Thanks for your input, dp! Bret
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Post by mister frau blucher on Sept 10, 2015 21:15:27 GMT -5
I pretty much agree with all that has been said here - from a consumer stand-point. I would prefer that the PDFs are formatted for printing on letter-sized pages - no booklet format - for basically the same reason as nukesnipe. I don't have or use a comb binder. I use 3-ring binders or those cheap, floppy folder-binders. I would also prefer a lower price-point ($5-$10) for PDF only. I'm wondering if I could buy a hard-copy and tack-on the PDF too for just $5 dollars or less? I would think the main advantage of using a third-party vendor (for DCG) would be some sort of tracking information embedded into the PDF - in case it winds up being 'shared' on the interwebs. Of course, that is easily by-passed. Ultimately, it comes down to loyalty and how much someone appreciates your product. Plat, 1. By letter size, you mean everything oriented toward the long side of the paper, rather than the size our booklets currently are? This makes me ask a very basic question, that I don't know the answer to...if a file is "formatted" or whatever for booklet size, does that mean you cannot re-format it for printing in letter size format? It has to be separate files? So, if that is the case, we would want to be as accomodating as possible, and release letter size and booklet size, color and greyscale, that would be four separate files? 2. Is $10 for 36 pages, 3 tactical maps, and a full-page (about 4X the current size, I think) too much? 3. If you got the hardcopy of the adventure for $15, and then a pdf with the above for $5 more, would that seem fair? 4. For you (or anybody reading) - the other big thing I need to know - if you got a game from the print on demand drivethrurpg/onebookshelf service, with a map and counters (if available), are they a)printed on heavy paper (map) or cardstock(counters) and b) are they worse/better than ours? Thanks! Bret
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Post by mister frau blucher on Sept 10, 2015 21:24:51 GMT -5
And NUKESNIPE
What is your avatar? I kinda remember that picture from Clear For Action, an old Anerican Naval picture book my Dad still has, but I could obviously be wrong.
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Post by platimus on Sept 10, 2015 22:20:21 GMT -5
Plat, 1. By letter size, you mean everything oriented toward the long side of the paper, rather than the size our booklets currently are? This makes me ask a very basic question, that I don't know the answer to...if a file is "formatted" or whatever for booklet size, does that mean you cannot re-format it for printing in letter size format? It has to be separate files? So, if that is the case, we would want to be as accomodating as possible, and release letter size and booklet size, color and greyscale, that would be four separate files? I probably shouldn't have said anything about this. I'm pretty sure it will work out the way I would like. Basically, if it is formatted similar to the free rules pdfs, I will be happy. Most printers these days have a 'booklet' printing option, so it should work out to anyone's liking. I actually have a printed copy of the rules pdf that I printed in 'booklet' mode, assembled, folded down the middle, and stapled along the fold. I was able to do this without a longarm by folding one side in half again (rules are not very thick). The 'page size' of each page in the pdf doesn't matter all that much to me. Again, anything like the rules pdf is good with me (portrait-like pages) and again, I shouldn't not have even mentioned this. My fear was that a 'booklet' formatted pdf would have landscape pages with 2 pages of text per page...and the pages would be out of order somewhat to facilitate 'booklet' printing. That would be crazy in my book I sometimes forget that other people are more sane than I am "and a full-page of counters? (about 4x..." That sounds fantastic to me! I would be just as happy with 36 pages, 1 tactical map, and current, 'hard-copy' number of counters. You guys really mastered the one, multi-purpose map thing. There's so much cleverness in the design of those things. It's different and really well done. I appreciate those gems. It seems fair from my perspective because I'm buying both the hard-copy and the pdf. From your perspective, it probably doesn't seem fair because you are including 3 tactical maps and more counters. Do whatever is best for DCG. I will adapt. I'm pretty sure I will be happy with however this turns out. I'm the amateur here. I can't answer this one. DCG books are the only gaming books I've bought in print (non-pdf) in about 25 years! Before I discovered you guys, the last time I bought a gaming book was circa 1990 in the mall while my fellow mall-rats flirted with girls in Spencer's next door! lol
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Post by nukesnipe on Sept 11, 2015 14:54:34 GMT -5
Scott, I hope you don't mind me asking a few questions. Please understand that my tone is inquisitive and genuine - on the web it sometimes is hard to tell: 1. Most of the rules/booklets I've purchased are formatted for letter or A4 paper. I like that as it allows me to use my comb binder without having to modify (cut) the combs. I also have a long-arm stapler, so I have the abilty to staple bind booklets the size of DCG's, but you really can't expect everyone to have one. I am 99% sure George knows the answer here, but is A4 the size we normally use for paper? And, if you did not have a longarm, how would you bind the booklet? Should it have an alternative format? Bret, A4 is the standard European sized paper. A bit taller and narrower than standard US letter. The longarm stapler is used when you want to bind pamphlets the way your games are bound. Without one, you'd use a standard stapler and staple the booklet from front to the back instead of the outside to the inside. O. C. D.... 2. If you are going to provide a color-intensive document, you might want to consider including printer-friendly files as well. Some publishers provide both color and greyscale files in their downloads. Do you mean actual separate files here, one color and one greyscale? There is not an option in the printing process to make a color cover into b/w/greyscale? I've seen both: a single color file, and two separate files. You are correct that a color printer will allow one to print in gray scale. 4. I print maps on 110# cardstock. Many of the games I've purchased include maps or map tiles. Given the size of the DCG maps, you're probably looking at a two-piece map, which is not uncommon. Some of the Heroic Maps Giant maps are 25 sheets, if not more. Some publishers include poster-sized jpgs of their maps so folks can run down to the copy/photo center to print them out nice a pretty. Other include virtual table top files, whatever those are. I think they support people using their tablets to play, or perhaps vassel modules. The poster-sized jpegs - couldn't you just blow up a map when printing it out? Or is that purely pixel size? Am I misunderstanding you here? The poster jpgs I mentioned are big files, ala 2000x3000 pixels. If you have a smaller file, when enlarging it you would most likely experience some pixelation. One potential advantage of the pdf's, which would bum me out a bit since I am a hardcopy guy, is that we could include two or three maps instead of one. More maps is always good.... 5. You'd be shifting a bunch of your production cost to the consumer, so the current price of your products might need to be adjusted. In all honesty, I wouldn't pay ~$13 for a pdf download of a game as small as one of the DCG games. Avalon Game Company makes games of comparable size (but considerably lesser quality) than DGC. They might be a place to look for price ideas. They're also the makers of the annoying counters I mentioned above.... You are right in that a lot of the cost is shifted; it would be ridiculous to charge the same price pdf as printed. On a few other posts here, a 5-10 dollar price point has been cited. Is $10 too much for 36 pages, one tactical map and one small countersheet? Looking at drivethru, tht seems to be a proper range. $10 is a reasonable price. You'd might want to advertise $9.99. It's a marketing thing, so my wife tells me. One advatage here is we could make it a full countersheet. The countersheet is the most expensive part of our games, as small as it is, but if we did it digitally we could include more of them, I think... So if 10 bucks is too much for the above, how about for 36 pages, 3 tactical maps, and a full countersheet? Standees, perhaps? In addition to the counters you already have. I'm putting the finishing touches on the Deadly Mission base game. The player characters are standees (they call them "paper miniatures") while everything else are standard flat counters. 8. Quality-wise, all you can control is the artwork, typeset and formatting of your product. The quality of the actual printed product is up to the consumer. Some will only print counters and maps and use their tablet/laptop to reference the rules, while others will print everything in the highest quality possible. I'd recommend giving the customer options with high/lo res artwork and color/greyscale artwork. I'm mildly OCD (have to be to paint 15mm), so I tend to print the book covers in high quality on glossy paper and the interior pages on plain paper with my printer set to high quality. Others might not be able to afford the ink and would prefer a nice greyscale option. I guess I'm trying to say is "forcing" a customer to spend $20 to print a $5 pdf might deter folks from additional purchases. If my total cost (purchase + printing) is going to be more than the $15 I currently spend on a DCG (product + shipping), there's no benefit for me to purchase the pdf. On the other hand, the pdf is nearly pure profit for the publisher. I think this is a good basic philosophy for going forward. As always, Scott, thanks for your thoughts - it means a lot.[/quote] Bret[/quote] No problem, Bret; I serve to live. I enjoy helping and bask vicariously in DCG's success.
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Post by nukesnipe on Sept 11, 2015 15:01:16 GMT -5
And NUKESNIPE What is your avatar? I kinda remember that picture from Clear For Action, an old Anerican Naval picture book my Dad still has, but I could obviously be wrong. My avatar is a photo of the USS Butler (right) and USS Heerman (left) taken from an American CVE the morning of October 25, 1944 during the Battle off Samar Island, the third of the four battles comprising the Battle of Leyte Gulf. Some people call it the Battle of Taffy THREE. Long story short, 6 USN CVEs escorted by three DDs and four DEs found themselves under the guns of a Japanese fleet consisting of 4 BBs (including the Yamato), 6 CAs and about 20 CLs and DDs. The CVEs didn't even know the Japanese were in the area until they were in range of the BBs' guns. Bad Day. If you ever get the chance, read Last Stand of the Tincan Sailors.
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